This is an automatically generated transcript of the PodPod episode ‘Blanchard House: The importance of owning your IP’. We apologise for any errors in spelling and grammar.
Rhianna
Hello and welcome to PodPod. I'm Rhianna Dhillon and I am joined this week by Reem Makari, PodPod journalist and reporter, and Adam Shepherd editor of PodPod. Hi, guys.
Adam Shepherd
Hello.
Reem
Hello.
Rhianna
Hi, how you doing?
Reem
Good. How are you?
Rhianna
Yeah, really well, it's been a fun week I've been standing in for Kermode and Mayo again, for the Take, which is fun. It's always fun to do sort of like moonlight on a different podcast and see how it all runs. It is a very tightly run ship, which I like. It's very it's kind of like being back in radio, which is cool.
Adam
Bose gonna say it strikes me as a very radio informed show.
Rhianna
Absolutely, it absolutely is. So later on, we're going to be talking to CEO and co founder of Blanchard House, Kimberly Jung. So Blanchard House is an independent podcast company, co founded by Kimberly and Rosie Pye, who is a former BBC audio producer. So once again, the BBC really kind of honing great podcast people. We're going to be talking all about intellectual property, and how you can negotiate that with bigger companies such as TV or film studios. But first, what has been going on in the podcasting world this week for you, Reem?
Reem
There was news from Spotify, where apparently they're removing some of the exclusivity over its Gimlet podcasts and making it more available widely. So Gimlet is a podcast production company that they acquired, I think in 2019, they acquired also Parcast and the bringer. And that came along with all of their podcasts as well. And Spotify is really big on exclusivity, as we know, with all of the big deals with celebrities, and they've been signing up Joe Rogan, Kim Kardashian, Emma Chamberlain. And so for them to actually move exclusivity over some of its Gimlet podcasts is a big thing, because I don't know this is kind of a way where they're admitting that maybe exclusivity is not the best for them, because there has been a lot of speculation about whether exclusivity is the right thing to do or not and how it affects your podcasts. And the union for Gimlet kind of called out Spotify. A month ago, when they cut 11 of the original shows from Gimlet and Parcast, they released a joint statement and they blamed Spotify. And they said that because they made their shows exclusive. That's why they started underperforming because people were listening less on the platform. And then they ended up getting axed because of that. So now, hopefully, them distributing it more widely, will end up getting them to reach bigger audiences and also increase their ad sales, which is why they're choosing to do this to begin with
Rhianna
Adam, what kind of effect is that going to have then on other platforms who perhaps also have exclusive content, are they're going to follow suit you reckon?
Adam
Probably not. I think Audible is the only of the platform that has a significant amount of exclusive podcasts. Spotify was really the only one that was going hard on complete exclusivity. Amazon music in the last kind of year or so has been going for a timed exclusivity approach. So on Amazon music and Wondery and things like that, listeners can get early access to new episodes or, you know, to new seasons as a boxset. But they come to other platforms after a couple of weeks, usually, which I think is a good method because it means that you're not cutting out a huge section of the audience who's like, Well, I only want to listen on Apple podcasts. So if you're not on Apple podcasts with all of my other shows, then I'm kind of not going to be that fussed. But it's interesting, because Gimlet has been really the jewel in the crown. For Spotify. You'll actually probably be familiar with a lot of Gimlets work indirectly. So Gimlet was the studio behind Reply All, which is now cancelled, but was previously pretty much podcast royalty, and they have been one of the most successful studios in translating their podcasts to other formats. So Homecoming on Prime Video, which Amazon picked up for, I think, two seasons a few years ago, that started as a Gimlet podcast.
Rhianna
Sorry, I'm literally looking at it right now. Yeah, so the first scripted series from Gimlet media starring Catherine Keener Oscar Isaac, David Schwimmer, Amy Sedaris, yes. Interesting. So in terms of IP, because this is getting so sort of merged, right that podcasters are perhaps having to make a decision if whether they should keep their IP or not.
Reem
The issue of IP or the topic of IP is just a bigger discussion within the podcasting world about consolidation in the industry overall. I think it's a risk where more and more companies smaller independent production companies are being acquired by these big podcast platforms, they risk selling their IP, and they risk losing it. And then when they're under new management, they end up risk losing the creative control, and some of them might end up getting fired and let go of their jobs. I think this is just a wider issue overall, within the podcasting industry about consolidation. And when many smaller independent podcast production companies kind of being acquired by those big podcast platforms, I think they just have to be careful about what they're selling when they're selling their IP and going over their contracts carefully, because otherwise, they would end up, you know, losing their creativity control, or they might even get taken off the project completely under new management. So I think it's just a matter of being careful and having that discussion about IP more.
Rhianna
Well, this is what we get into and so much more with Kimberly Jung. So let's bring her in. This is me and Adam, talking to CEO and co founder of Blanchard House, Kimberly Jung. Kimberly, thank you so much for joining us on PodPod. It's really so lovely to speak to you.
Kimberly Jung
Thanks, Rhianna. It's great to be here.
Rhianna
So I want to ask initially Blanchard House sounds just like an incredibly exciting hotbed of creativity. How did it first form what led to the decision between you and Rosie Pye to launch Blanchard House,
Kimberly
in the spring of 2021, I had met Rosie and we didn't meet in person actually, she was working for as a freelancer for Google to do one of their shows Theory and Practice. And the host of that show is my husband, Alex Wiltschko. And so that's actually how we met. And she was telling him how she really wanted a bit more creative freedom. I mean, a lot of us do, right. And a chance to be able to break into the US market for podcasts and audio documentaries. And she felt like there was this space that was unexplored. Or maybe people weren't doing it the way that she saw. And she had a vision. And when I heard her story, and I heard her background, and I was in between jobs at the time, and I just finished something. I was really just taken by her and how passionate she was about the industry about audio documentaries. And I loved her vision. And her vision is about making these great stories from unique and diverse perspectives all over the world. And bringing it to, you know, many series narrative, storytelling format, which, you know, we're all familiar with. But I had never been in this before, actually. So I am not, I'm not in media. I wasn't before. And I am now. So now I'm a CEO of a media company publishing company. But Rosie and I decided to embark on this. Back in May of 2021. We raised a series a slash seed round, in August of that year. And then we recruited all of her friends and colleagues from various places from the Economist and the BBC. And we sold them on that vision as well. And it almost feels like we're this small startup crew, like it's our own ship on the ocean. We're fighting pirates and encountering mermaids going through all the ups and downs of being in a startup, you know? Yeah. And it's really exciting. And I think, I love being on this team, we have a very close relationship with our whole team. And we work really hard and we have big goals.
Rhianna
I think it's really interesting. You you're talking about bringing in people from the these kind of veteran journalists, people from the BBC, from the Economist, we've talked a lot about how people seem to be jumping ship to either independent companies, or just moving away from what we would see more as traditional media. So how easy was it to convince them to come on board and work with you?
Kimberly
I think places like the Times and the BBC, and Economist are really great places to work. And they definitely have an editorial perspective. And I think all of my producers have had their training in these organisations and are really grateful for that. And so I don't ever want to like, you know, undermine those organisations and what they do for society. And then their perspective is, is great. And I think a lot of these veteran producers who came to Blanchard House, they wanted to try something new. And it's more of a question of, at some point in your life, do you want to be building something? Do you want to be building towards something and turning a creative vision into reality? Or are you taking someone else's creative vision and turning into reality? And so one side of it is a bit more dependable and conservative and you don't have to worry worry about the day to day you don't worry about your next paycheque. And the other side, which is the startup side is a bit more up and down. And there's more risk. But I would say and maybe I'm biased, it's a lot more rewarding.
Adam
And that element of creative freedom is something that we've heard from a lot of people who have left established organisations to either move to a startup or indeed just to, to do their own thing as an independent podcaster is that kind of creative freedom, something that you've really made efforts to bake into the strategy with Blanchard?
Kimberly
Definitely, creative freedom is something that we pride ourselves in. And that also means for strategy, typical strategy is you say yes to things. And you also say no. In an ideal world, we would love to be able to have your creative freedom and have your cake and eat it too. And so that everybody also wants to pay money for your version of things. But that's not always the case. So when you're building a business, on your own vision, you have to make sure that it makes sense economically. And financially, it works out so that there are people who are willing to pay for your creative vision. And what's been great for Blanchard house is that absolutely has been the case. And Rosie and Lawrence and the team have honestly hit it out of the park, and we validated with the market, that people they embrace our creative vision at Blanchard House. But that's not always the case. And anytime somebody has their own creative vision, you have to make sure it connects with like market opportunities.
Rhianna
What does that sort of mean in terms of Blanchard House describing itself as an IP incubator? How do those two work in tandem?
Kimberly
Blanchard House is an IP incubator we find and curate amazing stories from all over the world. And what we've tried to do is elevate unique and diverse voices, which I think most a lot of the media industry has been going towards that in the last couple of years last decade or so. But there's still definitely more room to be had more work to be done in this. 22% of media companies globally have women in charge of editorial. And I think that's a problem. And so Rosie and I both as owners, and as leaders of this company, we're you know, this is all Rosie's creative vision, I think having women in charge of editorial is a very important thing. And that's what we strive to do.
Rhianna
What sort of difference do you think that makes then for you being the figurehead of this company?
Kimberly
So for me as CEO, I would say, I'm the person who helps to keep the company together emotionally, teamwork wise, I help set our procedures and our processes for making great decisions. And, you know, I've been leading teams since I was in high school, and college, I was in the army, and I was a platoon leader and an army officer and whatnot. And I've taken a lot of those lessons and brought them to the teams that I've led, both in business and in other places, too. And it's been such a pleasure to lead the Blanchard House team, because they're a group of really creative, amazing, brilliant people. And I think to be really honest, I think sometimes the British culture is a little roundabout. And sometimes maybe people have problems like directly confronting things and solving things. And they'd rather kind of skirt the issue. In my opinion,
Rhianna
that's a lot of agreement, right there!
Kimberly
We've had some really wonderful talks, which might be daunting in the beginning. And then sometimes it ends in people like tearing up and feeling very close to each other, because we were vulnerable, and had to figure things out and learn from the other person's perspective. And I'd have to say that that same culture that we cultivate at Blanchard House is what we also aim to put out creatively because every individual has a unique perspective. And we do talk about the hard things. We talk about hard issues, we talk about people's stories, their livelihoods, family drama, you know, these fantastical stories that transport you to other worlds other perspectives. And my producers, they just find some of the best stories out there. Sometimes it's people in the network. Sometimes people come to us to tell us their story. And we enter into an agreement with them. And we we really, we do all the journalism for that story. So that's one big thing I want to highlight with Blanchard House is that we we do the journalism and I think, in the podcast industry, I think journalism definitely gets done. I think in some narrative storytelling, it's not done as much as it could be. So narrative nonfiction with high quality first class journalismis something that Blanchard House does very well.
Adam
And they just want to talk about that in relation to the IP question that we touched on earlier. Obviously, podcasting has been really successful in terms of its own economy, you know, it's picking up steam in terms of advertising spend, all of that kind of stuff. But increasingly, over the last couple of years, what we've seen is wider media channels, like TV networks, streaming networks, the likes of Netflix, Amazon Prime, etc, using podcasting, as almost a sort of breeding ground for new ideas and new stories, that they can then option and translate into TV shows and films and other kinds of projects. Is that something that you're specifically architecting, your shows to facilitate?
Kimberly
Yes, Blanchard House definitely optimises ourselves to present IP as part of the IP funnel for TV and film. And when we started the company that was part of the vision and the mission, when you think about reading a script that's in written form, let's say it's from a book, or it's from an article versus hearing a podcast, I think it's really obvious that hearing a podcast allows a writer or a TV producer, to be able to visualise and understand the story much better than it does the other way around. So I think podcasts are pretty unique in that and something that we do at Blanchard House very well as we have invested very heavily in sound design, and music. So we do all of our composition in house. We do sound design in house, we don't use freelancers, these are people who work for us full time, and we're full members of our team. And we make some of the best audio, I would say the best sound design and music in the industry. It's very immersive. We actually have a really exciting project coming up, which I can't speak to the details of, but we're starting to get into, you know, more spatial audio and 3d sound design. Oh, so yeah, just be on the lookout for that we've we've got some really cool things up our sleeve. And we're working with some big partners to make happen.
Rhianna
Can you think about some of the earlier examples of before Blanchard House became a thing, examples of what you were just talking about of where podcasting really was kind of making inroads in the space of television and film, which I think is well, it's quite unexpected for a lot of people.
Kimberly
I think that started happening before we started our business. And we saw that there were hints of that. And for Rosie and I, we felt there were still, there was still opportunity, which is why we started our business. And we've found that it's that we were right about that. We've made a lot of traction in the last year and a half that we've been pitching. We just like a lot of other people have an agent WME, William Morris Endeavours is our agent. There's a lot of other great agencies out there as well, but WME has been really great with us, we have Drew Welborn and Alex Bewley, I'll give them a shout out. Megan Pelson, who was on the TV and film side, and they've done a fantastic job, ushering us into the world of TV and film, and pitching us to them. And finding where it fits, because that's essentially what the agents do, right? Like, it's not always perfect fit. Like these stories have to be told a certain way that fits with that particular platform's creative vision, what they're looking at, at the moment. And so curating that slate has been a work in progress, like we've that's a lot of work and a lot of that is Rosie, and then Duncan Barber, who's on our development team. And then now we just hired Hassan Choudry, who used to be HBO Max's director of podcast strategy. So he's really helping out with this endeavour as well. Basically at Blanchard House, we're adding more resources and we're really focusing on this IP funnel from podcast to TV and film.
Rhianna
So that's interesting that you have somebody from HBO, which is obviously predominantly known for its television output. But Hassan worked in the podcasting side over there, was that about companion podcast predominantly with HBO?
Kimberly
Yes. When we met Hassan we actually met him at Podcast Movement. And it was kind of a cold call. I'll be really honest. As an entrepreneur, I we hit the pavement you know, all of this is hard work. And we didn't meet Hassan just from the network. It was just us emailing out meeting with people and meeting Hassan at the show. And at HBO Max Hassan was focusing on companion podcasts at the time. But we were talking about expanding those opportunities with HBO Max. I can't speak to the insights of what's happening with them now, I think things have already changed a lot in the last couple of months, as we, you know, the industry has been consolidating, and then people's, honestly, people's budgets have been cut. I think we all know this. So I think everyone who's listening to this, like, you know, it's been a little tough pitching right, in this time period. But hopefully, that'll pick back up in the fall. That's what we're all hoping.
Adam
Well, on that subject, then true crime is, I don't think anyone would argue that that's the most well known genre in terms of podcasts. And it has proven to be one of the most successful for IP optioning. podcasts like Dirty John, have been, you know, early successes in that track. But have you guys noticed any sort of emerging genres that are proving more popular for IP pickup deals and optioning? Or any genres that you're investing into more heavily, with that in mind?
Kimberly
Yeah, that's a great question. I think everybody's trying to figure out what the next genre be. And as much as maybe a lot of us wish that true crime, but we moved on from true crime. Even at Blanchard House, we do True Crime adjacent because it has a very natural storyline, and it's something that people love.
Adam
And sadly, there's a lot of content.
Kimberly
There is a lot of content. I think what we do differently, if we do a true crime series is we we do the journalistic version of the true crime. It's not just what you would find on Wikipedia. And so it's still still a lot of work. I mean, I think history has definitely been one that podcast listeners have loved to listen to. For us, you know, we've got also, I don't know if you know that we have a show coming out very soon with Audible. We got two shows. And they're both historical shows. And one of them's based off of Agatha Christie, and some of her novels. We're doing that with Joe Nocera, and he did the Shrink Next Door, speaking of which of, you know, true crime that turns into TV and film, of course, yeah. So he's one of our collaborators and advisors, and we were doing a couple of shows with him. So stay tuned. It's hard to say I think people are looking for stories that are a bit more intellectual and uplifting. One bad thing about true crime is it often seems like it's dead women in gutters or something like that. And I think we're all looking to be a bit more positive. So I would, if it were me, I would probably bet on genres that are uplifting that are positive that expand your view of the world that leaves you feeling more connected.
Rhianna
I'm super intrigued about the Joe Nocera, Agatha Christie combo because obviously Agatha Christie is not so well known for true crime. Are you able to talk about how that works with being nonfiction? If it's based on Agatha Christie novels?
Kimberly
It's based off of Agatha Christie style. So, you know, the way that she told stories? Yes, we've, we've translated that into a podcast version of that, which is really exciting. So it's almost like Joe Nocera is like Poirot. And he's investigating this poisoning story in Hay on Wye, which is a tiny village somewhere in the UK. Maybe one of you guys knows where it is.
Adam
I know Hay on Wye well!
Kimberly
There's a book festival there every year. We already produced that show. It's in its final touches right now. And it should be coming out very soon. And, yeah, that's definitely an exciting one. Because, you know, like Agatha Christie, like that sort of storytelling is pretty timeless. We're taking that and turning it into a new format.
Rhianna
Yeah, I think that's such a great shout. Because we're really seeing that in film and television, the whole idea of the whodunit and, you know, with Rian Johnson and coming into that field with all of his Knives Out films, so I think that sounds incredibly pertinent. Exactly. You mentioned earlier about how you find your stories and you know, the different places that it can come from either you seek them or sometimes they're pitched to you. Is there a process or you know, do you have a way of kind of filtering out particular stories? Are there any like complete nos that you're like Blanchard House just wouldn't work with
Kimberly
one of the ones that we definitely say no to is if let's say it's already been written, and it's in another form, like a book and then it's a New York Times bestseller, and it's costing like 1000s and 1000s of dollars or hundreds of 1000s of dollars to buy the rights. That's when we say no, so we don't we don't look for those stories. We find stories that we feel are treasures that other people have looked over. And I think the the part that we fill the gap is our journalism. So we do a lot of original journalism to fill that gap. We're looking for hidden treasures.
Adam
Nice. Speaking of hidden treasures, one of the things that podcasters, particularly independent podcasters can run up against in relation to IP, is in terms of exclusivity. So we've had a couple of cases in recent history where a platform has acquired a suite of podcasts, whether that's through straight acquisition of the company, or through exclusivity deals, and then has essentially fired the creative teams behind those podcasts, retain control of the IP, and just, you know, kept the podcast rolling with new creators. How important do you think it is for creators to examine the way contracts deal with IP, when they're looking at things like acquisitions and exclusivity deals, because I feel like it's something that a lot of podcasters don't have really any familiarity with, if they're not coming from a kind of business or legal background.
Kimberly
When we sign contracts that go forward to TV and film, or just to our platforms, we always try to negotiate for Blanchard House to have executive producer credits, which allows us to have editorial, maybe not, you know, final say, obviously, but at least have some input into it. And so that's the way legally that you can ensure that you don't just get fired, and taken off of it, is to have executive producer credit. This is a tricky one, because I mean, I'm wearing both the business hat. And while I don't wear any creative hats, you know, but I just wear the business hat, but I haven't. I'm the CEO of you know, I have a creative company. I sit at the boundary between business and creative. And so I see where it clashes sometimes where we have to work things out. And I can definitely see business reasons why. You know, a platform would do what you just described in the beginning, which I still think is pretty terrible. But when business has to do what it has to do, if it's an existential threat, for some reason, then you have to make those decisions. However, most of the time, when I hear something like that, it's probably because somebody isn't doing their job leadership wise, maybe. And they're not having those tough conversations and figuring it out with people and what I call making the sausage, which is messy, and it involves making sure that everybody's voices are heard, and that people hear the feedback or they have to accept, they have to understand other people's perspectives and put themselves in other people's shoes. And that's a messy process. But what ends up happening is you get the best outcome. So you get the best people on the job. And if somebody disagrees with something, at least they'll understand the reasons behind that decision. So that's not to say that I think what you described was necessarily wrong or right, I just hope that everyone is doing the right thing. And making sure that all the key stakeholders, including the creatives are at the table. And they also get to have their perspectives properly inputted and considered.
Rhianna
With that in mind, do you think it's worth it for podcasters, to create shows, with the help of external companies or funding programmes, if they risk losing their IP,
Kimberly
that's a tough one, that is actually probably a business decision, because what these external companies are offering is funding, right? If they're only offering editorial, maybe you should reconsider. If you think that there might be a clash, and you have a very strong editorial vision of your own. But if you are in need of funding, and you're on your own ship, and you have your own startup, doing your own thing, you have to balance that. And we do that all the time at Blanchard House, because all of what we've made so far has been commissions. So we don't have final editorial say, however, in the pitching process, we are pretty strong about what our editorial vision is. And we only say yes to the people who agree to that editorial vision before we sign anything, you know, and then the negotiation process is what I do with our lawyers. So if any creatives out there are thinking about negotiating contracts on your own, don't do it. Go get a lawyer. For sure. You and I don't do this, you know you need to have a lawyer who is understands all the ins and outs of the clauses for negotiation. I've had this question before, if you have film and TV partners like production companies who are wanting to enter in a relationship with you and pitch out, you should be asking them for a shopping agreement. Sometimes they don't do that, if the shopping agreement is if it's sort of informal, but you should at least ask for it.
Adam
So for the sake of listeners, what is a shopping agreement,
Kimberly
a shopping agreement is an agreement that is around a certain IP. So it's a story, let's say you, as a podcast publishing company own a story. And you enter into a shopping agreement with a TV and film production company, they're going to present that story together with you and with them. And they're going to be pitching it to the likes of Netflix, Apple, you know, universal, NBC for them to say, yes, they're the ones who are the ultimate buyers, because they're the distributors of the content. And once they say yes, then you and the production company would enter into an agreement where they are going to get a budget, some of that budget goes to you some there's some IP split in the back. But they're going to be making the show into a TV show. But before you do that, you have to shop it around. So it's it's like this period of time, which is maybe between 12 to 18 months, is a time in which nobody else will be shopping this meaning they have exclusive access to your show like or selling your show, you've agreed not to try to sell it elsewhere through another TV production company or through somebody else. They're the only people who are shopping it
Adam
Sort of like being engaged.
Kimberly
Yes, it is like being engaged.
Adam
Is that the same thing as optioning?
Kimberly
No, if you enter into an optioning agreement, they are going to be buying that IP and they will control it, right. A shopping so you probably didn't know the answer that question was why you asked it. So thank you for asking that. The shopping agreement, you would still own the IP. And sometimes that shopping agreement comes with an upfront payment to you, if you're lucky, you should be advocating for it. But they won't always give it and then you can always say no, then you can take it elsewhere. So if like your show is pretty hot, and there's other people who want to shop it around, then you can probably demand and get an upfront payment for that shopping agreement. And you try to keep that period as small as possible. Six to 12 months.
Adam
Are there any points where you've walked away from potential shopping deals when that upfront payment hasn't been offered?
Kimberly
We're looking at some of those right now. So I can't really say of course. So but theoretically, the answer would be yes, we would we would walk away.
Rhianna
Same sort of question for about controlling the IP, sorry, I'm getting slightly lost in the business terms here. But you know, we were kind of talking about how important it is to control your IP, or to keep hold of it. You know, if a company is saying actually, no, we're not going to give you this. That's just our rule is for you. Is that would you walk away from that then? Or is it like a constant negotiation, it depends on the project,
Kimberly
we would walk away and it is a negotiation if the platform is big enough. And if they're offering enough money, or they're giving us rev share for some other thing or other back end, we might say yes but we like to hold on to our IP Blanchard House, because it's editorial control. And it's I mean, ultimately is about the story. So like as much as you can, I would hold on to the IP.
Rhianna
And when you're working with somewhere like Audible because of the you know, the true crime podcasts you're talking about earlier are going to be on Audible. Does that mean the audible owns the IP in any capacity? Or is that still you?
Kimberly
I can't speak to the actual deals that the deal terms that came out to that one. But, you know, audibles is working with us on the show, and they're turning it into a show behind their paywall. And hopefully, we'll be able as a group to also sell that IP onwards to TV and film and see it have a new life there.
Rhianna
That's very exciting.
Adam
I think for my money. One of the biggest examples of the importance of IP, and the importance of long term thinking with regards to IP is Marvel. Because Marvel when it was struggling in I believe the 80s or 90s financially sold off huge chunks of its IP rights, film and TV adaptation rights to a variety of studios Sony and Fox being some of the biggest ones. And then when superhero movies became or started to become, you know, viable big business films, they found that they had sold off the rights to a number of their, like real big hitter characters, and then spent the next 20 years trying to either claw those rights back, or to replace them with something that wasn't as, as popular. And of course, you know, there are some trends that it's impossible to see coming. But if they'd hung on to the IP rights, they would have been in a much stronger position much earlier. So for podcasters, who are kind of trying to build wider content businesses around their work, what are some of the early building blocks and preparations that they can put in place to put them in a stronger negotiating position, going forward, you know, assuming that their work does start to take off and pick up steam?
Kimberly
I think writers and journalists and producers, when they find a story, they're doing a bulk of the work, they are creating the IP, the IP first belongs to them. First and foremost. I think the way you think about it is in any other way that the IP can live into a different medium and and take wings elsewhere. How much of it can you do? versus how much of it you need someone else's help on? And how badly do you need that help. And when it changes into different medium, or different media, it is different and some, some might work and some might not. So a good example would be Joe Nocera and The Shrink Next Door. The Shrink Next Door started off as an article, I think it was in the New Yorker, this is something you should double check. But it ended up getting cut before it went to publication. And I think Joe was actually devastated by that. And it was a family member who told him, You should turn this into a podcast. And that's when he did that. And as you know, Shrink Next Door was top top of Apple podcast, podcast charts for 13 weeks straight, and then turned into an Apple TV show. So it went really, really well. So I think when creatives are starting out, just realise the value of your IP and the ways in which you can keep it safe or just by thinking about at every turn, if you do want it to have a new life somewhere else, in what ways can you do this yourself and present it? In what ways do you need somebody else? And if you need somebody else, they are going to ask for either ownership of that IP, or a piece of it based on milestones like based on distribution numbers.
Adam
So in terms of protecting IP, then are there any mechanical things that podcasters need to do any legal hoops that they need to jump through in terms of things like registering trademarks for things or, you know, filing the IP equivalent of like a patent application, for example? Or is it literally just a case of, you know, it's my idea, I can prove that I had this idea on this date? Because here's an email, where I was talking to my agent about it,
Kimberly
actually, for the email to the agent. I don't know that that would count. Yeah, I think it has to be published somewhere. As a podcast, as an article as a book, as a TV show, it has to be published somewhere at this point, I'm not entirely sure. But I mean, I would get a lawyer for when you're talking to someone else about your IP, you they should be under NDA, you can get any NDA, under, you know, if you just Google NDA, if you really don't want to spend money on a lawyer, and have people sign it. And then within the NDA, it should be clear about kind of at least have the title that references the body of work that you're talking about. And if anything, you know having things by email, at least you have a timestamp for the date of this body of work. A lot of IP is also as I understand contacts, like relationships with contacts. I don't think that you can patent that or and I don't think you can say that. Well, I had contact with this person first. But tapes, written work in forms of books so like actual audio tapes, those are those are yours, and people cannot steal those. Yeah, I think especially when we're thinking about large language models and Chat GPT and strings of words up to a certain point, you know, like facts cannot be patented. But works that are derived of perspective on those facts can be so you can place IP on that stuff.
Adam
So meticulous record keeping is what I'm hearing.
Kimberly
Yes, I would say so meticulous record keeping and to be safe. I would write things down. Yeah.
Rhianna
Before we wrap up because Blanchard House is still you know such a young company you said May 21. So two years old. Congratulations.
Kimberly
Thank you.
Rhianna
You're a toddler! I love it. Yeah. What is the kind of biggest success story that you've had so far with Blanchard House or something that you guys are really proud of in terms of your output?
Kimberly
First, I'm really proud of our team, because we have a bunch of people who worked for these big organisations before. And they took the leap of faith, to trust me and Rosie, to come here and to be part of our company. That's very brave. So I'm really proud of that. We also have five shows coming out this year. So yeah, we're two years old, we've got five shows coming out. And it's gonna be really exciting. I'm really proud of how much progress that we made without having a show out. Because right now, if you try to Google us, or you try to find us on Apple podcasts, or Spotify or anywhere, you won't be able to listen to one of our podcasts. So you might not believe me that we're doing really well, but we actually are. And the last thing I'll say is, I think the most fulfilling part of being part of Blanchard House, for me personally is watching Rosie grow, and being able to be part of seeing her creative vision turn into reality. She as a partner has grown immensely as an operator as a leader, as a creative director of Blanchard House. And it's almost like having like a, like a work wife, like she's like we're married or something. And we've had so many ups and downs, we've made each other cry. We have laughed at so many ridiculous things that have happened. We've been in low lows, we have held each other through tough times. And we have really celebrated our wins. So I love doing this with Rosie, my co founder. And it's been the most fulfilling thing.
Rhianna
That's such a lovely sentiment. And I'm sure that will come through in your podcast. So what have we got to look forward to remind us?
Kimberly
We have five shows coming out, I can only announce two of them, which are the two Audible shows, right? Actually, only one of them's coming out this fall, then we have others that I can't announce yet. Like I can't announce who they're with. But you will find out soon enough.
Rhianna
Okay. Exciting, intriguing. Thank you so much, Kimberly, for talking to us. And we will keep an eye out for all of Blanchard House's projects in the next few months, years.
Kimberly
Yeah. hopefully we'll make this announcement soon.
Rhianna
That was Kimberly Jung, from Blanchard House CEO and co founder. And I've got to be honest, that although really interesting, I've felt very much out of my depth talking about all things, business and intellectual property. And it's not a world that I'm hugely familiar with, which I sort of feel like must be the position for a lot of I'm not a creative, but a lot of podcaster creatives who come into the podcasting world to make something and don't necessarily know much about the business side. So what do you think were the sort of key takeaways then Reem?
Reem
the topic of IP, I only just recently started learning more about it as like going more in depth into the podcast industry and what's happening. And I think, like some of the key takeaways with IP is the fact that people who are who are independent or people who you know, have a really great idea, they just need to be a lot more careful when they're talking with other production companies. So one of the pieces of advice that you mentioned, was trying to get an NDA, when you're talking to discussing an idea with someone that she recommended of having a lawyer present. But you know, the NDA is an option for people who can't afford a lawyer, but like having a lawyer is really great. Having emails to track timestamps, all these things that can really just protect you from getting some of your ideas stolen, especially with how important IP is in terms of just growing your brand over a long period of time. In general. It's not just the one podcast that you're making. You might be looking at making sequels, you might be looking into transitioning the podcast in the future to a TV show or film, you might want to make merch and all these things come to play with IP. So just having, you know a good lawyer to look over that contract is just very important that I think that was a really good takeaway from her.
Rhianna
That is really important, but for people who aren't in that position, and are kind of in a much more early startup, indie sort of world of podcasting, that sort of advice I kind of was trying to think about how to apply. Because if you're pitching to a massive company like Spotify, for example, are you going to ask them to sign an NDA about your idea? Like, and how sort of legitimate would that be? Would they be okay with that I can sort of see them turning around and going? Absolutely not. So, you know, how much sway Do you think that indie podcasters actually have? Are we talking more about bigger companies here who would already know to have a lawyer involved,
Adam
this is the calculus that a lot of podcasters need to make. It's the same in basically any creative industry, when you are starting out, and you don't have the sort of cachet to go into negotiations in a strong position. And to make demands effectively, with regards to IP ownership, or copyright, all of this kind of thing. You are a little bit limited in your dealings with these big platforms, because they will just come in and say, Well, no, you know, we're Spotify or Netflix, or whoever, you are nobody, we will give you a sack full of cash. And we will take all of your IP, and you will say thank you and be happy, which is why a lot of creatives do go down the self publishing route. And indeed why a lot of creatives go to podcasts from other mediums, because they're wanting to retain more creative control. And self publishing is much more of an option in podcasting than it is in other fields. You know, it takes a lot less capital to get something out the door. And it is a lot easier to do that while retaining control of the IP. The problem is a lot of podcasters don't think about IP until it's too late. Because it is complex. It's a it's a complex, confusing world full of legal jargon and technicalities, and, you know, potential pitfalls. And yeah, why engage with that until you have to? The problem is when you do have to, it's usually too late.
Rhianna
On that very bleak thought, there... Well, hopefully there was some really kind of interesting bits that people can pull out. I hope you found it interesting. I certainly did. I felt like my eyes have been opened to the world of business and intellectual property, which I knew nothing about. Thank you so much, Adam and Reem for joining me. And of course, thank you so much to Kimberly Jung and Blanchard House for chatting to us. You can sign up to our daily email bulletins, where we have loads more information. And podpod.com is the hub for all things podcast, loads of news, loads of what is happening right now in the podcast world. You can rate and subscribe wherever you get your podcast and please do and we would really love to hear from you. If you have anything that you'd love us to answer or talk about on the podcast. please do get in touch at podpodofficial on socials. The podcast is produced by Emma Corsham for Haymarket Business Media, and I'm your host Rhianna Dhillon, and I'll see you next week. Thanks
