This is an automatically generated transcript of the PodPod episode ‘Sangeeta Pillai: Breaking taboos through podcasting’. We apologise for any errors in spelling and grammar.
Rhianna Dhillon
Hello and welcome to PodPod, the podcast all about podcasting for all of you lovely podcasters listening. I'm Rhianna Dhillon and this week I am joined by Adam Shepherd, editor of PodPod and Reem Makari, journalist and PodPod reporter. Hi both, how are you doing?
Adam Shepherd
Good.
Rhianna
I'm really excited about this week's guest. It's Sangeeta Pillai, who is an activist, writer, and speaker. She's the founder of the South Asian feminist network, Soul Sutras, which is all about tackling taboos. So she created the Spotify award-winning Masala Podcast, and it's such a great show. It's specifically for South Asian women, dealing with sex and shame and periods and arranged marriages and sexuality and so many other taboos, so many other things that there just isn't the space for to talk about elsewhere. So we're gonna dig into all of that with her in a bit. But first of all, Reem, what have you been up to? I feel like there is something on the horizon that you've written, which sounds fascinating.
Reem Makari
Yes, I've been working on a feature for a while now that's just gone out. It's based on research that was done by Edison and SiriusXM and it's called the Black Podcast Listener Report 2.0. They've basically surveyed a bunch of Black podcast listeners and talked about how they're a bit more engaged than the general US population, even though the numbers might be a bit lower, and how they want to hear more stories from Black hosts or Black perspectives but ones that go across a range of genres. And one thing that was interesting in the report as well, was the fact that it could be a bit hard to discover these types of podcasts sometimes. And I remember having a conversation before about how podcasts for people from different communities, underrepresented communities, are promoted, and that they aren't as easily accessible or easy to find as other podcasts. Or sometimes they kind of grouped into categories like Black History Month or South Asian Heritage Month, and so on. So it was interesting to see that, that people want a kind of easier discoverability as well, do you find it difficult to find podcasts from people from different backgrounds without finding a specific kind of chart dedicated for a certain community?
Rhianna
Yeah, it's really interesting, isn't it? Because I was looking at this around International Women's Day, right. So I was looking through the podcast charts. There were just so many podcasts helmed by white guys. And if they weren't helms just by a white guy, it was a guy and a woman. And there were so few that were just women. And then there were so few, like I don't think they were even there in those initial charts, of women of colour. And I thought that was really, really telling because for all that, we talk about podcasting being very inclusive. And in this, you'll hear us go on to talk about podcasting being a safe space for all kinds of different cultures and ethnicities. But still the ones that are getting rewarded the most, the ones that have the most money, the most sponsorship, the ones which are still reaching the majority of audiences are still helmed by white men. So it is fascinating. And especially like you just said about the categories. There are a lot of female podcasts being pushed to the forefront, because it was International Women's Day. So it's all a work in progress. Adam as our sort of minority this week, you know, the only white male on the podcast against three women of colour, how does that feel for a start to be to be in the minority for change?
Adam
I am delighted to be the token white guy on this week's podcast. I would like to see more white guys in token rolls on podcasts because we are just way too prevalent in podcasting. One of the things about the feature that you wrote, Reem, and the report that it's based off of that I found really interesting is the data that they've got on the kinds of genres and whatnot that people from underrepresented communities, and particularly in the case of the report Black listeners, want to listen to and want to hear from is I mean, it sounds really obvious, but it's across a range of topics. They want to hear kinds of Black voices and diverse voices across a range of genres, not just talking about kinds of Black culture and Black issues and whatnot. And I think that's really important. While highlighting things like Black History Month and International Women's Day and whatnot, by pushing and highlighting podcasts around these issues is really important, that's not everything. It is important to make sure that voices from different cultures, talking about the range of human experience is also something that we're kind of promoting and pushing as often as possible. One of the things in my background previously in the tech industry, and I'm sure I've mentioned this on the podcast before, you would quite often hear from a bunch of female executives for International Women's Day. And then they would just not ever get put forward for any kind of interviews or common opportunities outside of those windows. And it's so frustrating.
Rhianna
It is and it's something that spills out into so many different industries including film. So for example, weekend is gone, a film called Rye Lane is out and it is a rom com and it stars a majority Black British cast. And there is nothing in this film about race or ethnicity or about the quote unquote, Black experience in the UK. And it's such a breath of fresh air because it's not commented on because it's a romcom that's what it is. And so yeah, I completely understand it's we have so many white comedians that have podcasts about being parents or about being married or you know, and there just aren't as many opportunities for people of colour because it's always expected that we have to comment on our colour rather than anything else. So we are going to kind of dive into all of this with our brilliant speaker this week Sangeeta Pillai.
Sangeeta Pillai, welcome to PodPod. It's so lovely to have you on, how are you doing?
Sangeeta Pillai
Really good, thank you. As we were talking about before, I'm bringing my brightest jumper in an effort to brighten up our call and my day.
Rhianna
You absolutely are brightening up all of our days. This is really exciting to have you on. I've been following you and your career for a long time now it feels like so I'm thrilled to have this opportunity to talk to you and about something that I feel very passionate about. And I know that you also are kind of making great strides in which is all about breaking down taboos in podcasting. So we kind of want to get into why podcasting is such a great space to do that. So first of all, in terms of your podcast, the Masala podcast, what did you set out to do? What were you initially hoping to achieve when you first started this podcast and tell us a little bit about what it involves as well.
Sangeeta
I am, I think, what I'd call an accidental podcaster. So I started a podcast without really knowing what a podcast was. And I said this to a lot of people, I went onto Google and typed in and I am not, you know, making this up. What is a podcast? Because I'm like, I'm an older person, I don't understand what the difference between a podcast and radio is. And I literally had to look it up. And I started Soul Sutras. There was about a year of social stress. It is a network for South Asian women, as you know, Rhianna. And the whole purpose of it was to allow us to talk about taboo topics. And you notice coming from the same culture that within South Asian culture, there are a lot of things we don't talk about. We don't talk about sex, we don't talk about bodies, we don't talk about orgasms. We don't talk about periods. Mental health is just solid stuff. And it's kind of cultural baggage that we carry from our parents, they probably carried on from their parents. And within my own life journey, I saw that when I didn't talk about it, it just kind of accumulated and then became a bigger thing. And then when I started to have discussions with other women from the culture, there was a sense of oh, okay, so this happened to you too. And, you know, a sense of connection, a feeling of, oh, we're not alone in this. And I started Clozaril trades and I was running something called Masala Monologues, which was kind of like Vagina Monologues for South Asian women. I was getting done like about 20 workshops, I think that first year, and I'd get South Asian women together and talk about a particular time in their life that they faced, you know, coach them on how to write a monologue around it. It took this and turned it into two theatre shows. One was that rich, the next one was at the design museum. And then I was after. And while theatre was amazing, and really, really creatively really quite fulfilling. It only allowed me to reach a small percentage of the audience I was trying to speak to and I was thinking and looking for something bigger. And podcasting kind of popped up on my radar. And I was thinking about it, but I thought, well, I don't really know how to do this. And I happen to see a competition from Spotify called Sound up where they were looking for more women of colour podcasters because back then, and to a large degree now it's very much a middle class white man's game, you know, podcasting, there are very few women like me, well podcasters I entered the competition without really thinking I would ever hear back and I got a call from them the next week to say you've been shot listed we had 750 application in London that year. And you're one of 10 that got shortlisted, your idea. And the idea was a masala podcast. And it's not changed, like what I typed in there is exactly what it is now. So we got put into this bootcamp for podcasting. And at the end of that you got five minutes to pitch your idea to the head of BBC podcasts, Google audio, and I think Apple podcasts. And they got five minutes to ask you questions, and I won the competition. And that's kind of how Masala Podcast came to be. I was incredibly excited. That's amazing. It really was. And I was standing there. And I remember, you know, those, there are rare times in your life. Like, I never used to be the most confident person. So I remember standing there thinking, I think I've got this. Yeah. And it very rarely happens in my life. But I knew at that moment that I had got it even so when they announced my name, I'm like, okay.
Rhianna
So just so what was that pitch then? What was the pitch that then became the podcast? What did you include?
Sangeeta
Exactly what it is now, which is astonishing about it, is that it was called Masala podcast. I think the tagline was talking about things we don't talk about. Okay. So it came to us later, because it was a little bit vague. But it was exactly this, each episode was about a particular topic. So it could be sex, it could be periods, it could be menopause, it could be porn, whatever. And I'd interview a South Asian woman on that theme, and I will talk about my experiences kind of growing up in India in the 80s, moving to the UK and my personal experiences around that taboo topic, as it were. And that's exactly what we started the podcast with. So it's quite astonishing. Now talking about it as like that kind of foreline pitch, is what it is today.
Rhianna
And out of all of those guests that you've had on, were there any that were kind of really kind of chomping at the bit right, in those early days to come on and break down those taboos with you? Or did you kind of have to really persuade them that this was going to be a safe space for you to talk about this with them?
Sangeeta
I think the first season was a little bit trickier because people don't know who you are. And rightly so you know, you're kind of opening up pipe personnel things in front of someone, so you want to be sure that they can kind of look after you. So I think the first season was a little bit trickier. But you know what, man, I think people just came to me. And I found you know, I'd connect with someone on social media. And I'd say, you know, I'm doing this podcast, what do you think you have? And most people said, Yes. Which was really surprising. And a lot of people in the first season weren't necessarily famous people. But they're just people I met or whose stories I thought were super interesting. And they were talking about things that I thought as a community we needed to talk about, you know, like, there was an episode on on periods, which was the head of bindi, which is a pair of charity that works primarily with South Asian communities in the UK, there was an episode on mental health, I was speaking to a South Asian mental health specialist, because a lot of medical services aren't really good for us. It's, you know, kind of the benchmark is a more English byte kind of lens. So they kind of organically appeared. And the episodes that I don't remember sitting down and saying, right, I'm going to do 10 episodes, and that's going to be these themes, and they just kind of evolved. All of it actually has been a solid podcast that has just evolved organically, and it sounds a bit bonkers. But that's the truth. That's how it's been the whole journey.
Reem
Because you've spoken about taboo subjects in the podcast. Have you ever gotten any backlash or criticism from the South Asian community? When you are talking about these subjects? Or do you just get a lot of positive praise?
Sangeeta
90% of it is positive, which really surprised me because when I started this, I was like, I'm sure there'll be some, you know, rubbish that comes my way. That surprisingly, I haven't, I'd get the, you know, I think at the odd like, Asian men, writing to you about something weird. Rhianna is laughing because she knows exactly what I'm talking about. But I think 90 95% Even is positive and it's from women or those who identify as female. And it's incredible. I mean, remits, like I when I'm talking about I get goosebumps, because this kind of stuff I get on like emails or social media or DMS, it's like you've changed my life, or, you know, I heard your podcast and it made me feel less alone. You know, someone wrote to me, I've literally just put it up in one of these decks. I'm putting together what she said, this, these words, your podcast changed my life. I was going through a really difficult phase in my marriage. It was a really unhappy, abusive marriage. And she said, I kept listening to your podcast for months and One day, I then decided to leave. I mean, isn't that, you know, it's just like even speaking about it, I just get, you know, I get quite emotional. And most of the feedback is like that. They share with me quite deeply personal things. I did a post the other day about how difficult it is to be LGBTQ plus, as a South Asian woman. And I had a couple of people write in to say, you know, I'm with my girlfriend, but it's been such a difficult experience to kind of tell my family about it. So for a lot of people, I think this is a safe space. And also my way, as a person, it's never about, I don't know, I want you to tell me all your secrets, you know, I genuinely want you to feel like this is a safe space where you can express and I can express, and I am very vulnerable in all my podcasts. And if you've ever listened, and I am very open about my mental health, or things that are challenging for me. So I think that in turn, makes guests and kind of listeners feel like, okay, she's got this, you know, we feel safe. So yeah, in answer to your question, most of it has been positive.
Rhianna
Just thinking about the idea of the safe space, the podcast being a safe space. I was listening to your interview with Anita Rani the other day. And one of the things that you noticed a way of you getting her to talk about her experiences was saying about how much you think it will help other women listening for her to talk about it. So can you talk about the safe space and why you think that podcasts are so suited to that more so it seems then radio or TV or it was more intimate even than, you know, reading a book or an essay,
Sangeeta
I am really passionate about podcasting, I feel like I found my thing. You know, it's like, I feel so and I don't know, if you feel the same. I feel like oh my god, here's the thing that I can make my own. And, you know, coming from the background that I come from, I grew up in India, I moved here about 1819 years ago. So I'm not from this world entirely. Having kind of gone to Oxbridge. I don't speak, you know, I've got a mix of an Indian accent and a British accent and this random mix of I don't know how many accents, but I can be myself on a podcast, I don't have to be anybody else. I don't have to sound like anyone else. And I think, for me, that's probably what I feel very passionately about podcasting. As like I can, it can be my space and my medium. And I think for exactly that reason, I think, listeners, it's this intimate space in your ears, like how much closer can you be to another human being, you know, you might be kind of making a cup of tea or going for a walk, and I'm in your ear talking to you. Most people listen to podcasts in that way, on headphones, you know, when you're doing something else. And I think therefore, we as podcasters have a really deep and quite intimate relationship with our listeners. And we are seeing a lot of things also that are personal for us, like I talked about, like I was saying about my mental health or whatever, you know, those are things that are difficult for me. So that's how we build this relationship as a podcaster. And a listener. And it's kind of it's not one way, I think it's a connection. And I think within that safe space. And because it's not kind of like a TV show, or a radio show is projected out into the world, a podcast, I feel like exists in this beautiful stillness between a listener and a podcaster. That's how I always think of it when I'm recording, I don't think of it as this thing that's going on to hundreds of 1000s of people, I think of it is just me and this guest and there's one person listening, you know, and therefore that intimacy continues, I think, and I wonder if my guests pick up on that as well. And therefore, it is almost as if me, the guests and our listener were sitting down having a cup of chai and talking about something deeply personal to us. I think that's why it works.
Reem
You've done a number of live shows for the podcast as well. And how was it like when you would be in front of an audience having that safe space and seeing people respond to you? Is it a very intimate environment? How does it feel?
Sangeeta
It feels amazing. It's like the podcast, but times 100 Because you're in the room, and there's always about 100 people, you know, within the room, so every three lines, I think, and you can feel the love in the room is to sound really hippy, but that is exactly how it feels. You're sitting there on stage with your guests and all these people that are a little bit darker, but you can see their faces and you can see the love and you can see the happiness and you can see the laughter when you're saying something funny. So it's almost like you're connected to every one of these 100 people within that space. And for me, the lights are also an opportunity to kind of have fun. A lot of my podcast episodes are more serious than fun. And I try to do a light touch on it, but it is, you know, can be quite intense. So in the lives I always do, I had something that I call the orgasm guessing game, it's like an orgasm. Yeah, every, every life, I do that. So I'll have the sounds that a woman's making, and the audience has to guess whether she's seen a spider or had an orgasm or stuff like that. This is like a multiple choice question. So it always gets people laughing. And you know, it's just such a fun atmosphere. And you know, I love doing live shows. We know, it's a lot of, you know, effort to make sure that the sound is right, and you know, people are turning up and guests know where to come and all of that. But when you're kind of in that room, and you're on, it's amazing, um, the energy is just absolutely something else. So many of the people never want to leave after the live. So I've learned that you booked a drink afterwards, because nobody wants to leave.
Rhianna
They want to stay and tell you. Exactly,
Sangeeta
exactly. They can hook you and they want to talk to the guests. And you know, and ask him an entire episode, you talked about this thing, and I wanted to talk to you about that thing. And it's just incredible.
Reem
Please, can I get an invite?
Sangeeta
It's so much fun, I tell you really.
Rhianna
We'll do team night outreach, for sure. I can understand obviously, once a listener has found you they stay but find you. How was that in the beginning? Because as we keep talking about it's quite a taboo thing. It's still quite a new thing. So in terms of finding your audience, how did that happen? Can you remember how it started and how you grew it?
Sangeeta
So I think I found my audience primarily through social media. Now, I never used social media before I started my podcast. I'm like, Oh, God, I'm gonna learn this thing. Now.
Rhianna
You're so good at it.
Sangeeta
That's really good because I've never used it before. And I'm like, Oh, God, I'm gonna do old dog new tricks? Whatever. Yeah. I had to kind of teach myself. And I think a lot of people that have found me have found me through social media. So primarily Instagram, Twitter. And then people tell other people, like women, especially Asian women reposted on and I'll meet people at like events and the back. Oh, you know, this friend of mine sent me your podcast, and I didn't realise it was you. So this sharing, you know, says something that resonates? So for example, I did this menopause episode. And you know, menopause has been in the news. So a lot of women have said, Oh, I heard this. My friend sent it to me. And it was you. I didn't realise it was you. So you know, but that's kind of how South Asian women had found me, I think so it's either word of mouth or social media. What I do struggle with however, is like a lot of I think older South Asian women are not necessarily on social media. So I would love to reach them. But you know, I don't know how, you know, that's, I think something that I'm thinking about. And also podcasting that we in the podcasting world think everybody listens to podcasts, but a lot of people don't know.
Rhianna
It's a weird bubble. Isn't it? Such a weird bubble? Yeah, it comes down to technology, ultimately, I think, right? Like it's, if older people knew a number. This sounds incredibly patronising, but I'm talking about people in the 80s. Yes. Who aren't so often using, yeah, tech, but if they did, I feel like we use it so much to kind of STEM loneliness. Yes. And that's such a huge part of older communities as well, I think it will be so vital. It's just you're so right about getting it out there.
Sangeeta
Yeah, absolutely.
Rhianna
This is what I don't understand, because you're reaching a certain level of Spanish, South Asian women who are of a certain age or under, but they all have aunties, they all have mothers, they all have grandmothers. So how do you think the lessons, you know, kind of like teaching upwards the lessons that they're learning or the ability to kind of communicate that they're learning through your podcast? Do you think that is actually working kind of upwards? Is it opening floodgates for them to be able to have conversations with their family members that they perhaps weren't sure how to approach before?
Sangeeta
Yeah, when you were saying this, I remembered that someone wrote to me, I think on Instagram, and they said that they had met their mom sitting down and listening to a particular episode of mine. I think it was about sex or something that was difficult for this person to talk about. And she's like, I made my mother sit down and said, You must listen to this. We had a listen. And then we talked about it. So I thought that was incredible. So I'm almost like this medium between the two generations, because you know, there's so much stigma and shame attached to it. And you can say sex and bulbils and orgasms and whatever, you know. So I think sometimes it can be as easy to say, hey, on onto your daddy or whatever. Listen, here's the thing you should listen to. And then once they've listened, then you have a conversation to say, Oh, what did you think? And then that could potentially open up a whole host of other things you might want to talk about that you've not touched upon cuz sometimes it's just that it's like we've not done this before. And then once we do this, it becomes easier.
Reem
How do you keep your community engaged beyond the podcast? Do you engage with them a lot on social media through direct DMS? Or do you have a platform where people can speak to you?
Sangeeta
So they contact me by email, there's my website, there's social media, there's Twitter, you know, there's loads of ways people connect. And all of those are valid. And I kind of take the time to respond, because I think that's really important. Because I think when someone feels like they're being heard,
Reem
One thing that stood out to me, there's an episode where you talked about accents. And you mentioned that in the conversation about changing your accent to fit in, obviously, in podcasting, your voice is the most important thing. Did you ever feel pressure in the beginning to kind of change your accent so that you can fit in with other podcasters? Or? Or is that something that you will actively try to avoid?
Sangeeta
So it's so funny, you should say that's one of the first thoughts or conversations in my own head when I heard myself for the first time. So I recorded that first episode. And I remember listening to it. And I remember thinking, gosh, that sounds so Indian. And then I was like, hang on a minute, thinking that what? What was that? Check in? Yeah, cuz, you know, we are picking up these messages all the time. So in my head, there's some conditioning that says, to sound Indian is worse than to sound British, you know, so I had to check myself as well, because we are products of the world that we live in. So if we're turning on the radio, or turning on TV, and everybody sounds a specific way, and we don't, then does that, Oh, am I less than, you know, am I? Okay, you know, am I allowed to do this? You know, so I had to have a conversation with myself. And I remember doing this very distinctly to say, Yes, I do something. And yes, that's amazing. And that's okay. And that's going to be my podcast, I'm going to be exactly who I am. And I think that is very, very valuable. So with my Indian, British Mumbai, Bangalore, Kerala accent, we'll talk about all the things I've experienced in my life, living in India, then moving to the UK and all of it. And that then resonates with other people who also come from mixed backgrounds. Because I think this country is a nation of immigrants. You know, we're all immigrants. I'm a first generation immigrant, somebody else might be second or third. And we have to create a world where we all feel we can be ourselves, sound like ourselves, and we don't have to pretend to be anybody else. And all of it has equal value in the world. You know,
Rhianna
I was gonna ask you, Reem. Actually, is that something that you're super aware of? Because you're sort of newer to podcasting. But is that something that you think about?
Reem
I was going to say I think this is very inspiring to me. And it's because when I first started listening to myself, I would also get kind of embarrassed at the fact that I wouldn't articulate properly or I wouldn't say sentences properly, or that my accent is different, because my accent is a mix of like, Lebanese and also growing up in Abu Dhabi, where there's many different Arabs from different countries, and then also moving to the UK. And then I would think, actually, there's a reason I don't speak as articulate as everyone else. And it's because I'm like, Okay, I speak two languages. That's something to be proud of. I'm like, I'm not supposed to be embarrassed of this. And I think it's, anytime I hear someone who has a UK podcast with a different accent is always very inspiring to me, because I'm like, Okay, well, they're very successful, and they don't have a British accent, and they're not embarrassed by it. And actually, they shouldn't be embarrassed by it. So then it reminds me to not be embarrassed by my accent. I think it's really great.
Sangeeta
And brave. I think that's the beauty of podcasting. And I think there are very few places in the world where you can turn up exactly as you are, and no one's going to try and tell you, you know, to change it or be something different. And I think that's the real beauty of podcasting. And that's, I think, one of the reasons why I feel so strongly and passionately about it.
Rhianna
And also for what it's worth, as somebody who obviously I work with you Reem but I just love hearing what you have to say because it's all about your experiences, and your accent informs your experiences. It's just telling us another detail about your life. Yeah, absolutely. Just the nugget of information. That's all. I think you're an amazing podcast, Reen, so yeah, you should never be embarrassed.
Sangeeta
The voice sounds amazing. It makes me very interested because I heard the Lebanese in your voice. Interesting. And you know, outside of the podcast, I would have asked you like, Oh, where did you grow up and tell me more about your lives?
Reem
Hear me whenever I get back from conversation, talking with my parents, and then the real thick Lebanese accent comes in.
Sangeeta
Over the phone, if I get a call from India, suddenly I become more Indian.
Rhianna
My dad has a superb British accent now, because he moved over here when he was 1415. But yeah, when he's just got off the phone with his uncle or his brother, then suddenly He'll slip into it, even though it was, you know, he's had a British accent as easy as 14, but he'll still slip into it. Talking about the communities that you're speaking to, and the communities that you're speaking about, like you said, it was initially predominantly South Asian women. And that is the kind of network that you've built up. Do you kind of step outside of that? Do you speak to people who aren't South Asian?
Sangeeta
it's primarily a South Asian female identifying audience, I think, and I very deliberately built it because there aren't many things for us in the world. You know, there are many spaces that are just for us. And so it was a very conscious decision on my part to create the podcast for South Asian women. But I've had a load of other listeners as well, mostly women, white British women. And what's interesting is they all say to me that the themes you talk about are very relevant to us, except it's a little bit maybe maybe more extreme in your culture, or the culture that you're talking about. So whether it's bodies, whether it's the kind of weirdness around sex, whether it's menopause, whether it's mental health, they're all universal themes that women are dealing with on a day to day basis. And they come to me and say, Oh, I really heard this episode. And I love what he said there. And, you know, I found that in my own life, so it has kind of broadened out. Although I set out to talk to South Asian women, it just seems to have resonated with women outside of the culture as well, which is lovely. A trainee is lovely.
Rhianna
Has it inspired any other podcasts for other communities then?
Sangeeta
I get a lot of requests for sort of mentorship, I guess is broadly what it would be. I mentored this young lady who lives in Germany . She's from India. And she's doing a podcast about women from Crep;e. So it's very specific. Wow. Yeah, she is from there. And then she moved to Germany. So we talked about that. And she said that my podcast inspired her to start hers, which was amazing. And then there's a couple of students, I guess, every student network that supports students, and they started a podcast among themselves, talking about issues with young people. And again, I've had a couple of calls, mentored them, you know, they had loads of questions, but how do you do this? And where are they distributed? And how do you market it, all of that? So I think I have, I think, in my work has inspired people in different spaces outside of my own kind of community and space. And that's really beautiful.
Reem
Are there any podcasters that you're inspired by, or ones that are taking kind of similar initiatives of breaking taboos, like Brown Girls Do It Too, with Poppy Jay and Rubina Pabani. And I think they're, they're also doing a really great job in breaking taboos. And so who inspires you?
Sangeeta
The Brown Girls Do It Too girls are just amazing. I mean, Poppy and Rubina are awesome. I find that I listen to podcasts outside of my experience. And that helps me think, kind of outside of, I don't know if that makes sense, like a bigger canvas with which to kind of think about. So I love the Where Should We Begin podcast.Each episode is a couples therapy session. So you're like literally sitting in her office listening to her counselling a couple about to break up. And it's fascinating because again, the themes are universal childhood trauma, addiction, mental health, you know, all the kinds of things that resonate with every one of us as human beings. So I love listening to that. What else do I listen to so many how to fail, I love How To Fail. You know, and again, listening to celebrities or famous people talk about failures and how it informed their lives. It's so inspiring. And, you know, I love that I'm listening to podcasts all the time. There's loads of themes. Gabor Maté, anything that he's on. He's a huge trauma specialist. That's one of my areas of interest, I listen to him a lot. Dr. Rangan Chatterjee has a podcast. He interviews really amazing, interesting people. So I think my, I guess, even hearing myself talk, all of it is about being human, I think, and about the stuff we all struggle with, I think is my kind of area of interest. So those are the kinds of things I ended up listening to.
Rhianna
And it sounds like quite a lot of interview based podcasts as well, which is obviously something that you featured very heavily in your podcast. And like I said earlier, you know, I was listening to your interview, too. As somebody who does a lot of interviews myself, I was really interested to hear how you were getting the best out of your guests. So how did you kind of hone your interview techniques? Were you listening to stuff beforehand? Did you have interviews that you really admired and that you really liked their approach? Or was it just kind of born out of you? Your natural curiosity.
Sangeeta
I think it was born out of me. I don't remember ever sitting down and thinking, Oh, how do I interview someone? Well, I don't think I did that. I think what I did was really listen. And I think that's the key. If somebody asked me what is the one secret of a good interview, it's like, listen to the other person. I think a lot of people make the mistake of, you know, especially if you're young, and you're starting out, you're like, too eager to get your questions in that you're not giving people the space to speak. And we've got to remember that as podcasters, or guests come on to our show, and we've got to give them the space and the time and the energy that they deserve, so that they can, you know, feel heard fully, properly. And I think when you do that, when you really listen, the kind of magic happens, and the other person feels heard, and then they open up. So I'd say that's how I've not really thought about it too much. But I think it comes from who I am. That's how I am as a person, I think even if we met for coffee, that's how I am. You know, I love people. I'm very curious. And I'm very kind of, I guess, empathetic towards people. And I think that comes across in the words.
Rhianna
And just thinking about all of the litany of people that you've spoken to such a wide range, some are household names, some are people that I'm just so impressed that you've managed to kind of find them. I was listening to one recently that you did with a South Asian porn star out of these episodes, you know, which are the ones that you notice kind of really resonate with your audiences? Is there sort of any in particular that stand out for you out of all of those?
Sangeeta
So many, Oh, my God, that's like being asked to choose a favourite child. So many, I mean, the pornstar one, the one you just mentioned, she's amazing. I'm such a fan of Sahara night. And she's on Game of Thrones. So she's, like, famous for having done that. But I loved how professional she was . That's her job. And she talks about it, like any other professional woman is like a podcaster, or radio host or whatever, you know. And I love the kind of professionalism and the authenticity that she has when she talks about being a porn star. And I love some of the funny instances she has as well. I agree. And I don't know if you remember, she talked about this Imam and a carrot
Rhianna
Yes.
Sangeeta
I love that. It always makes me giggle. If anyone's not listening to this podcast, go listen, because I'm not going to you know, I can't tell you more than that. There's a carrot involved. I don't think I'm shocked that easily. And also coming back to kind of holding space for the other person. And that's what it's about. So I think what you feel almost kind of takes a backseat. And it's about them. So whatever they want to talk about is okay. You know, whatever they feel safe and comfortable and happy to talk about is fine. I don't know if you've heard the episode with Anoushka Shankar. You know, as you know, she's a really big name. And she talks on the podcast about being abused as a child, you know, like she was molested at home. And it was quite a, you know, when she started talking about it, my body went very, like, you know, you feeling what she must have felt. And I think that's okay, on the podcast for the audience to hear that. You know, I think that's, that's actually beautiful for the audience to hear what you're feeling when you're listening to a particularly harrowing story. There's another episode in Season Four, where this lady was talking about being sexually abused by her father. I mean, for years and years, and it's harrowing. But I think our jobs as podcasters is to give people space. And it's not about us. And it's not about our reactions. It's about them. Really, there's a purity in that, I think,
Reem
Do you find it very healing as well, because I find that when I talk to other Arab people about stuff that affects us as Arab people, it does connect you to one another, and you do kind of get over your own trauma as well. And you get over your own issues. Do you find that talking to other South Asian women?
Sangeeta
Yes, it is, I think, and not just healing. It's such a connecting experience. Because when you talk to other people from your culture, there's so much that's common. And I think a lot of us go through life thinking that certain such things only happened to me, and I'm kind of bearing the trauma of it. And the stuff is so common it is and you think Oh, wow. And you also see the problem there. You think, oh my god, this is a big problem that we as a culture are carrying. We're not allowing people to talk about stuff that we should be talking about openly. And then we're perpetuating it, you know, we're carrying it through the generations. So, yes, it is healing and yes, it is. I guess, important in our own journeys as people as human beings as women, but it also shows you the scale of what this is and what we should be doing to address it.
Rhianna
Are there any areas that you're sort of yet to cover that you're really keen to sink your teeth into or dream guests that you haven't been able to get on yet?
Sangeeta
Oh, so many dream guests. Every time I see another awesome South Asian woman, I think, oh my god, I'd love to have them on the podcast. Jameela Jamil loves to have them on my podcast. Amazing. Mindy Kaling.
Rhianna
Oh, yeah.
Sangeeta
So many, I mean, I have like a whole dream list, I keep adding to it. Every time I see someone, oh, my god, I'd love to interview this person. In terms of things that I haven't covered. Like I was saying, I think earlier, the themes have evolved organically. I haven't sat down and said, like, this season, I must cover this, this and this. I just found the people. I think that's what I do. And then the people telling me the themes, you know, and so even for the next season, there isn't anything where I've said, oh, I need to do this, I haven't done that. It will just evolve. I think when I speak to the person, I have a conversation that I know what I'm going to talk about, you know, and it just emerges in that very organic fashion.
Rhianna
Do your listeners ever have a say or an idea or, you know, try and nudge you in one direction, or they want to hear from you about a certain subject?
Sangeeta
I do pull sometimes to say what would you know, one or two things that you? And funny enough, there was one poll I did that really surprised me. So the things that I thought were very kind of, it's not really interesting, divorce, stuff like that. So people want to talk about this. So I just thought, you know, it's 2023. I mean, so many people are getting divorced, what's the big deal? But that's been my learning. Thinking about what I needed to be like, a little bit more out there than I need to be sometimes maybe that's rare. They want to talk about divorce, and being a widow, and you know, things like that. But you think, surely we moved on as a society. But actually, they want to talk about that.
Rhianna
Isn't that interesting? Because I guess a taboo in one culture isn't necessarily in another.
Sangeeta
Yes. Yes, exactly. So that was interesting. That was a learning experience for me.
Reem
You've spoken about how much you enjoy podcasting as a medium as a way to be able to tell the stories and have that safe space. But do you think the podcasting community as a whole has been as accepting and as open? Or have you found it difficult being part of the podcasting community? And do you think they could be more inclusive and more that they can be doing?
Sangeeta
I've actually found the podcasting community really welcoming. And this is also probably why I feel so happy to be in this space, because I think it helps that it's a new space. If you go into something more established, like say, theatre when I was doing the theatre shows, it's a lot more closed. You know, there's a network and you need to kind of know people and the ins and outs of it. Podcasting, not so much when I started, so I launched Masala Podcast, November 2019. And that year, I won the 2018 competition. So it took me a year. And in that year, I was speaking to a lot of people. What do you think, what platforms are you using? What kit are you buying? And I'm just asking a lot of people and, you know, most people are happy to speak to you. That doesn't happen. In other words, like I come from a marketing advertising background. You know, you can't walk up and ask to speak to a creative director in an agency, they won't speak to you. It doesn't work like that. But with podcasting, people do speak to you. And I think that's really wonderful. And I hope as the industry grows, and we know that it's growing, and lots of big companies are getting involved, and there's lots of tech coming in, I hope we retain that. Because I think that's what makes it amazing. And that's what makes it really interesting, say for somebody who's young, like yourself coming in, you know, or someone from a different background or ethnicity, kind of coming into the space. So we must make sure that we keep this going.
Rhianna
She's thinking about at the moment or recently, I've been teaching a course at City University. And a lot of the students have been asking about how they can get started in film journalism in some way. But they're specifically talking about the language of asking for work or asking to interview somebody or that sort of thing, when you're sort of cold emailing people. So for you talking about subjects that can be quite taboo in any other world. How do you approach asking people to do an interview for something, is it I mean, just thinking about like, kind of practical advice for any listeners who are interested in starting their own podcast, which maybe delves into this detail? How much detail do you put into those initial opening emails conversations?
Sangeeta
Quite a lot, actually. And I think that's really important to do because if you're approaching someone, you need to make sure that you've done your homework. You know, it's not just a blanket email that your dear ex, you know, no one's going to respond to that. But if I email Rihanna and I know about Rihanna, and I know kind of what Rihanna does, what she's interested in, the kinds of things that we talk about, that makes a huge difference. So it's, it's kind of up to us as people who might want to interview someone to kind of really get to know them as much as you can, on social media on the Internet, look at their work, look at what they've done. And then write to them. Because they can tell if you put in an effort or not, they can tell if you've just, like, dashed off the same email to 50 people doesn't work. For sure.
Reem
Just going back to the guests that you have on and talking about the taboo subject? Do your guests ever tell you in advance that they have certain boundaries about the stuff that they want to talk about? or certain ways that they want to approach topics? Or because they are sensitive topics? So yes, do they give you those warnings?
Sangeeta
So what I do before and this is my particular approach, I will send them questions in advance. So I will say these are the areas that I'm going to talk to you about. And in that email, as always, if there's anything here that you're not comfortable talking about, please let me know beforehand and I will not ask you. And I think that again, is almost like a contract between anybody that interviews someone else, I think that we are not there to make people uncomfortable. We're there to give them space so that they can be themselves and say the things that they're comfortable with. So I always, always, always say that in an email before. So if there's anything in the line of questioning that they're like, Oh, I actually feel comfortable, they can tell me. But so far no one has, which I think says a lot
Rhianna
Says a lot about safe spaces.
Sangeeta
Exactly.
Rhianna
Sangeeta. Thank you so much for joining us. It's been so interesting and eye opening. And it's been a real pleasure.
Sangeeta
Thank you so much for having me. And it's been a real joy.
Rhianna
That was the phenomenal Sangeeta Pillai talking all about taboos. And it was so nice, actually, don't remember how you felt about this. But just to kind of speak to another woman of colour about something that I think we all feel quite passionately about. And it was really nice to hear what you're saying about being inspired, hearing another accent. And it's something as simple as that, which so many people might take for granted, but actually can make huge waves for you.
Reem
I loved doing this episode. And I loved interviewing her. And I think I always enjoy the episodes where we speak to people that are making real changes and representation for people from different backgrounds on the podcast. And one thing that I found that was very interesting, besides the fact that I really enjoyed her talking about accents, and that I do find her very inspiring. One thing she mentioned was that podcasting is a growing medium. And I think we hear a lot from many established podcasters that podcasting is no longer an emerging medium, and it's already emerged. And I think what I see is that for people from non white backgrounds, they still see podcasting as a growing medium, because it's only recently that we've had opportunities to kind of stand out and have a platform versus white male mediums that have had podcasters first started becoming a medium and that platform was always there for them. So for now, it seems like an old thing, or an already established thing when for us, it's more of like, No, this is new, but we're taking advantage of it. What do you think?
Rhianna
Yes, I still think about it as being such a young, emerging medium. And we've had people before comment on how techniques are kind of being taken away, and used in other countries where it's still incredibly young. And there's not nearly as many podcasts kind of saturating every genre, as it is kind of the same thing with boys thinking about feminism. When people in the UK sort of go, Well, we've got equality, and we haven't but even if that were true, it's not worldwide. And I sort of think that we need to keep calling ourselves feminists for as long as Worldwide, there is inequality. And it's the same with podcasting is not just your own singular experiences. You've got to be thinking about everybody else. Adam?
Adam
Yeah, I think that's so, so important. Because it's very easy for you know, all of us within the world of podcasting to forget that podcasting is a bubble in a lot of ways, you know, because all of us I think it's fair to say all of us that are involved with podcasting, eat, sleep and breathe podcasting to a huge extent. And outside of that sure is becoming more mainstream. Most people, certainly in the UK, are familiar with podcasting. But it's not anything like as common outside the UK in the US. And even within places where it is fairly commonplace. It's not as big a part of people's lives as it is for us that are on the inside.
Rhianna
And going back to the Sangeeta interview, you know, you are not one of the target audience. So coming at it from a really outsider perspective, what did you find interesting, you know, what did you pick up on that perhaps you wouldn't have known anything about not being a member of her audience.
Adam
One of the things I found really interesting, was the thing she was saying about the audience coming to her and, you know, particularly reaching out to her with their stories and their experiences, the topics that she covers are so personal, and in a lot of cases, quite sensitive. And it was not necessarily surprising, but really, again, inspiring to hear the amount of people that have listened and then reached out to her with their own stories. And it just really highlights for me how effective podcasting can be in reaching people and giving people that sense of community and support. And like you were saying in the room knowing that there are other people out there like me, who are doing the same things that I'm doing, having the same experiences that I'm doing, and that I can relate to, and get that sense of support from.
Rhianna
I'm really excited Reem for us to go on one of these live podcast recordings, we are gonna get trashed at the bar afterwards.
Reem
We're gonna be like Amy Schumer from Mean Girls in the audience with our phones in front of us, filming and being like proud moms. We’re like, we interviewed her, we knew her.
Adam
So Rihanna, you were very excited for this interview? I'm curious, what was your favourite part of it, or the part that you were most surprised by?
Rhianna
Because I don't approach the kind of conversations that Sangeeta does on a day to day basis. I do with my friends, actually, but not ever in public. So I still have that. Oh, God, what if my dad listens, sort of thing in my head, which is funny, because my dad doesn't actually listen to that much. My mom listens to everything. And my dad, not so much. But it surprised me how she's just like, Yeah, I have no embarrassment, you know, I'm fine talking about these things. I'm very open. And I'm always like, that's incredible. I wish I had a bit more of that kind of bravery. Because there's still that weird thing in the back of my head, you know, like listening to this conversation that she was having with a porn star. And the whole thing is like, I think that's incredible. But I think the most incredible thing is that she's talking about it openly in a space that her friends and family can listen to. And that's on me. You know, that's me kind of going. I could not because what if my dad, you know?
Adam
I mean I don't think I could have that sort of conversation to be honest.
Rhianna
I think the women that go on this podcast, and I think Sangeeta herself, are just very brave. But it's also, as Reem was saying, incredibly inspiring, because the more kind of brave women that are out there, the more normalised that is, and the whole point of it is that there's just less shame attached to it each time. What about you Reem?
Reem
What I find interesting about her podcasts and just herself, is the fact that those conversations, even though they're with South Asian women, and talking about the South Asian community, and I'm not that audience, I still find that I can connect to it because coming from from an Arab background, you do share a lot of similar cultural taboos as people in the South Asian community as well. So I do still connect to them, even though I'm not necessarily from the same community. And yeah, I do agree with you. I do think she's extremely brave. And the women that come on are very, very brave. But I also think it just shows how amazing podcasting is as a medium to kind of create that space and allow people to have this sort of conversation. So I really enjoyed that.
Rhianna
Yeah, a really special one, I think, for all of us this week. Thank you so much for listening. Thank you so much to Sangeeta Pillai, for you know, being really open and honest. And thank you so much to Reem and Adam for joining me this week. You can read Reem's columns on PodPod.com. You can find so much more content there and sign up to our daily email bulletins as well. And if you enjoyed today's episode, we'd really love it if you gave us a little five star review, five stars only please. Thanks so much. The podcast is produced by Emma Corsham for Haymarket Business Media, and I'm your host Rhianna Dhillon and I will see you next week, thanks for listening.
