This is an automatically generated transcript of the PodPod episode ‘Shade: Why we need more support for independent podcasters’. We apologise for any errors in spelling and grammar.
Rhianna Dhillon
Hello and welcome to PodPod! Apologies for the husk. I've been overdoing it on the Christmas parties. My name is Rhianna Dhillon, thank you so much for joining us on this podcast where we talk about the latest trends in podcasting. We have a chat with brilliant innovators and generally just do that meta thing of discussing podcasts on a podcast. Joining me today is Adam Shepherd, editor of PodPod, and Reem Makari, journalist and PodPod reporter. Hello, Happy Christmas.
Adam Shepherd
Hello.
Reem Makari
Happy Christmas.
Rhianna
Happy Christmas. How are you guys doing? You sound almost as ill as I sound Reem.
Reem
Very fluey, very much in the Christmas spirit. But in recovery.
Rhianna
I'm so glad, Adam, how are you?
Adam
I'm good. I am full of Christmas cheer and not quite so full of sickness as the pair of you. So I'm happy about that.
Rhianna
Very glad. So I was at, as I said, a Christmas party. And one of the things that I realised I ended up talking about a lot apart from White Lotus, was podcasts. And it's such a weird thing when you meet somebody who listens to the same podcast as you, you feel like you're in a special club. And it's just really like you kind of grab each other like, oh my god, you listen to this, too. It's my favourite one. Did you hear that episode where... And I find it so cheering actually. Do you find this? Are you kind of part of that little exciting, excitable podcast crew?
Adam
I am. And I can also say that 55% of people are also because Spotify has actually done research into this. Apparently 55% of people share podcasts as a way to start conversations and socialise with other people. So yeah, that is clearly a very common thing where you use podcasts as a kind of icebreaker. I know I certainly have a few kind of go to podcast recommendations whenever anyone asks me, kind of oh, what podcasts should I be listening to, which unsurprisingly, I get asked quite a lot.
Rhianna
What do you say? What is your sort of overarching one?
Adam
Well, my two kind of staples recently have been No Such Thing As a Fish, which I've started listening to again, recently, I sort of, it fell, fell down the list a little bit, but I'm, I'm back in with full force now. And then The News Agents is the other one, because I think it's just such a fabulous sort of format. I really should be getting paid commission for the amount I big up The News Agents on this podcast, but it is it is fabulous.
Rhianna
Reem?
Reem
I've actually, I've made a friend through a shared love of podcasting before; it was for my favourite podcasts. It was one of my favourite podcasts. It's called Seek Treatment. And they were doing a live show in London. I didn't know anyone who listened to it. And no one wanted to pay £20 tickets. And I ended up tweeting them saying, Can you please help me because I don't want to go alone. And they tweeted, quote tweeted my tweet saying, Please someone give this girl company. And then I ended up DMing this girl who said I'll go if you go, because I wasn't planning to go. And then we both bought tickets and went to the event together. I made a friend.
Rhianna
Aww, that's so nice.
Reem
Never spoke to her again. But she was very nice. Yeah, it was it was a good experience.
Rhianna
Which podcast was it? Sorry?
Reem
Seek Treatment.
Rhianna
And so when you do end up recommending these podcasts? Do you find that you're you're trying to tailor your recommendations to the people to their personalities? Or is it more like a sort of catch all you should listen to this? Because when people ask me for film recommendations or TV recommendations, I'll say, you know, what do you watch already, you know, what are you into? And then I'll, you know, slightly tailor it towards that. But I guess I don't know, as podcasts are different. Do you want to listen to things that does take you out of your comfort zone a bit more?
Adam
I think it varies. If I know kind of someone reasonably well, and I can I can judge with kind of a decent degree of accuracy, kind of what I think there'll be into, then I may get a little bit more kind of specialised with my recommendations a little bit more personalised, let's say. But yeah, I think in a lot of cases, I will just go for the casual podcasts that everyone likes. They're just fabulous. But also, podcasting is such a or not podcasting, but podcasts are such a personal thing. And in a lot of cases people listen to quite surprising podcasts. So going back to that Spotify study, apparently almost half of the people that responded to this survey said that people would be surprised at the podcasts that they listened to. So I don't know about you, but there's certainly some podcasts in, in my kind of repertoire that I think would be, I think quite surprising for, you know, people that that know me.
Rhianna
I'm so intrigued. Adam staying tight lipped on this. So I think we need to do like a full disclosure, in the name of us doing a podcast about podcasting, lifting the curtain, etc, etc. So, so the interview that we've done for today's episode was recorded a really long time ago, it was actually our pilot episode, it was our first interview that we did. And it's with Lou Mensah from Shade. And what's so incredible is that Lou just tweeted, I think this week, saying that shade had become number one, I think, on the Apple podcast charts, despite her last episode, having been released six weeks previously, and this is in the sort of the arts chart, I suppose, which I think is just such an incredible thing. Because I don't know you, you're always looking for your latest episode to be the one that does the best each time. And for suddenly, it to find to kind of grow its audience to find new audiences. Six weeks after it's been released, I think is really interesting. Reem? Is that a sort of normal projection? Do you think?
Reem
I mean, I think I think it is interesting, I think it probably has to do a lot with like word of mouth, it's reached a point where many people were talking about it and passing it on to the next person and the next person, the next person, and then it blew up. And I think that's also another thing that's great about podcasting is that a lot of it is based on recommendations from one person to the next. And it's great to see it happen to Lou because I think she does deserve it.
Rhianna
She does and she was like the first person right to get in contact with you. And you were asking about her to come on this brand new podcast that no one had ever heard or PodPod.
Reem
Yeah, she was. She was like one of the first people to respond to my emails. This was very much in like the early stages of us trying to get the pilot together. And she was very into PodPod as a concept. And I had the pre call with her before the recording. And she was just very nice and honest and open. I think it was like a 45 minute zoom call. To commit to a 45 minute zoom call is a lot. But she was extremely nice and very dedicated to the art of podcasting. Like I don't think she does it full time as she records it from home. It's a labour of love for her and I think you can really see that in the podcast.
Rhianna
Well, congratulations to Lou Mensah for the Shade podcast being number one in the charts incredible stuff. But enough of me rambling on, let's get to Lou Mensah talking about the Shade podcast. Here she is. Welcome to Lou Mensah. Hi, Lou, thank you so much for joining us.
Lou Mensah
Hi, Rihanna. It's so good to be here. Thanks for inviting me,
Rhianna
It's really lovely to talk to you. I mean, Shade is such a beautiful podcast, it's so well curated. And the one thing that always strikes me is just how much you cover in every one of your series, can you do you have a sort of elevator pitch of what Shade is because I feel like it's so wide reaching.
Lou
Elevator pitch, okay, that kind of means nothing to me. I'm not very like professional in those business terms. But you know, I know what the podcast is about. So I like to focus on representation within the arts. So you know, it's really looking at artists who perhaps, in history have not been focused on, you know, their work has not been elevated, as much as you know, mainstream, maybe white artists who usually filled the canon, the Western canon. And so I as a black woman, artist myself, you know, as a photographer for a very long time, a fine art photographer. And I was very aware that when I was working, and I was looking for inspiration, and I was doing my research, you know, I was trying to look for photographers and artists who were covering similar ideas or themes or you know, had similar experiences as me and the mainstream art world back then. This isn't the 90s When I started, but the mainstream art world didn't really cover the work of black artists so much. So I couldn't be enriched and inspired in that way. So that was one of the reasons I started it that I wanted to really look at the artists that I was always craving when I was much younger artists.
Rhianna
So you talk about are you talking about photography, these are very visual mediums. So tell us about some of the challenges of bringing that to life in a in an audio medium.
Lou
Lots of people would think that there would be challenges but actually, there aren't challenges because we hook up with you Instagram. So I've got quite a strong, you know, loyal social media following. So images are always on there. Whenever I publish a podcast, I make sure I put links to the images that we may be discussing. And for example, the last season that I produced was called Black Images Matter. And it was a season that focused on the media's response to the Black Lives Matter protests that happened in the summer of 2020. And I made sure that I chose images that, that people who didn't work within the arts or did not, you know, well, we're not familiar with visual culture. I chose images that were on every cover of every magazine on every news channel, on every magazine stand, you know, on the front covers. So I made sure for that season, for example, that I chose images that people were very familiar with, that they were talked about that they sparked discussion. And so that wasn't an issue at all. And the images were also linked into the podcast description,
Rhianna
You have managed to create a really striking brand, you know, the look, not just the sound of your podcast feels really vital. Do you think that, you know, if you're new to podcasting, or you haven't quite figured that out yet? Would you advise having somebody who like you has got a kind of professional career in that to come on board? Or do you think you are able to just sort of grass roots that without any idea
Lou
I think you should grass roots it you know, I grass roots it. I don't have a design background, you know, I have a photographer's eyes, so I'm able to capture images, and you know, I have a visual eye, but I'm not a graphic designer. So I just use Canva, and put some things together there, myself on Canva. So that's how I produced the podcast artwork. And the image that I used in the artwork is an image of my daughter that I used. So I just sort of mocked that up myself, I actually do have a designer that's coming on board for next season, because I'm doing something very different and very special for next season. So this is the first time in two years that I'll be hiring someone else to help me with the artwork. And I just had a little Twitter chat with them. And there's a day the the other day, from the How to Fail podcast. And she just drew her podcast artwork with a felt tip pen, herself and she just uploaded it, she's like I didn't have the resources to get help. I really think that we can concentrate on the small details too much. And I think it's the content that matters and getting the word out about your podcast that matters more than anything.
Rhianna
Before we start talking about your new series, can you just tell us about how you create all of your series, because a lot of them are reactive, you are talking about things that are happening in the moment
Lou
While the first three seasons were very instinctual and kind of reactive, but not in terms of maybe reacting to the news or what was going on socially or culturally, it was reactive, in the in the sense that I am very aware of what's going on in the art world, in our visual culture, in music, in literature, that awareness means that I'm constantly connecting with different artists of all types. I'm aware of what they're doing, and I'm getting inspired by them constantly. So because that's part of my everyday life, I will then act instinctually in a way that I will just reach out to them and think, okay, this person I feel is right for me to talk to now they have a really interesting point of view. Now the artwork that they're creating now, or the kind of ideas and the themes that they are exploring are really pertinent now. So for the first three seasons, there wasn't any planning. That's how I worked. I didn't plan a schedule, there wasn't any kind of timetable, I will just reached out based on instinct, oh, and ask that person. If they say yes, then that's great.
Rhianna
We were talking about how the medium of podcasting has sort of given agency and a voice to people who don't necessarily get the opportunities, or have been excluded from traditional broadcast mediums like TV and radio. So tell us about why podcasting was the right medium for you to tell these sorts of stories.
Lou
There's a range of reasons. The first reason is that I have other commitments, which means that I perhaps can't work within a traditional setting. I have a daughter at home who I've chosen to home educate. So that takes the majority of my time from nine till four every day, and then some, so I can't put myself in a traditional work setting. So that's the first thing. Second thing is, is that I also have a disability, which means that I also can't work in some traditional settings also. But what I really had was I was really craving to connect, and network and communicate with like minded people who works in the arts, who otherwise I wouldn't be able to access, you know, I can't go to all of the events, I'm invited to, you know, I'm invited to all the podcast shows and the panel talks and all of those things, but I can't access those because of my disability and also because of my commitments, but mostly because of my disability, especially through COVID. So I've not been able to do that. And that really affects sort of how you can worry. And I thought that podcasting was the perfect medium because you can really set up for very little money, you know, you can have a mic or not a mic. I didn't have a mic for the first two years, and just have your your laptop or even your phone. And so I didn't have to go to a studio, which I couldn't afford, and I wasn't able to, I could do it around my other commitments looking after my daughter. And it could be immediate, you know, it was an immediate, I had a thought, or I had like something that really inspired me. And it's literally you can action it so quickly through podcasting, I can send an email to somebody say, what are you free on Friday night for a chat, you know, and there you are, you're recording, you can't respond as quickly as you can with any other medium as you can as an independent person as you can through podcasting. Matt, I'd love to bring you in.
Matt Hill
Can we talk sponsorship? Have you had sponsors? How do you manage them? What's your way of making money out of the show through sponsorship?
Lou
I didn't make money in the first few seasons. And it wasn't a focus, the focus was just to create something really interesting and see how it grows and develops. And then I did start reaching out to a couple of brands who I thought did align with the podcast. And I got a small sponsorship from a health and wellness brand that aligned with the Black Images Matter series because it was about well-being and healing and looking after ourselves when perhaps life is quite stressful. I got a small amount of sponsorship for the first season. And then I was really lucky to be approached by an art gallery following that season. And they asked me to curate a series of podcast conversations on their behalf. So that was really a commission but what happened was that led on then to them offering me sponsorship money for the forthcoming season. So that's been a natural progression, I have reached out to different brands. But up until this point, I'm still working on that. But sponsorship, I think is quite difficult for independent podcasters. Because so many brands that I've reached out to base their metrics and the validity of your work based on your numbers, you know, so if you're an independent podcaster, and you're not a celebrity, you're not from a major production company, you're just not going to have the numbers that bigger podcasters do,
Matt
Forgetting the value of your audience, because what you've built with your show is a really valuable audience, which I can imagine the two sponsors that you've had really values because they really needed to access them. Do you feel like they got what they wanted out of the partnership?
Lou
Yeah, they really did. And actually, when I look at it, now there are three sponsors. So I was also approached by another gallery, the South London gallery. And what happens on the back there sponsorship is that they offered me a commission after that as well, because they so enjoyed the conversations that we were having, they wanted to continue the work further. So it was beneficial in the point that you kind of get validation by working with really respected brands and sponsors.
Matt
Well, if they're coming back for more, that suggests you're doing something right. So I suppose what I'm leading to is what's your advice for people who are, you have an audience that they value, and they don't have the numbers, the 10 to 15,000 listeners that you need to get a Acast or DAX or whoever to really think seriously about your show. But you've got a valuable audience that a brand would love? How do you engage them? What is your kind of like philosophy for dealing with you know, which could sometimes be like a big brand, or like a really important one and your small podcast? How do you make that work?
Lou
You need to reach out to brands that really align with your audience and with the work that you're creating, or the content you're creating. And rather than trying to be really impressive with numbers and what they can achieve by aligning with you, I think you have to just be really human about it, you know, I will express who I am, what I'm about what's really important to me, what's really important to my audience, what my audience consists of why this is a unique collaboration, why I am different from the other bigger, brighter, shinier podcasts that have celebrities hosting them. And then I build relationships with them. It just sort of goes above and beyond just talking about business. And I try to build long term partnerships with them. I try to think ahead. And it's something that I don't want to be a relationship for a one off season. So perhaps I will propose to them how this can be an ongoing relationship, how this would benefit them how this would benefit their audience how it would expand their audience as well. It's a mutual exchange. And sometimes when you're approaching big brands, who have like a bucket of money, they're holding the money and they think well, why should we give it to them, you know, but it's not about that it's mutually beneficial. And it's about really explaining and exploring the ways in which it's beneficial to the sponsors as well.
Rhianna
Thinking about sponsorship and also compromise because you do have companies who might have a very specific set of values and suddenly they might want to impart those values on to what you're saying. Where is the line? Can you imagine ever being asked to compromise something that you believe in? Or what to talk about? And how would that conversation develop?
Lou
You can't do that and be authentic in the work that you're creating, I just think you're not going to create the best work that you can. I think your audience are going to know it. I think lots of people do do that. I think lots of people do compromise. And I have a real issue with that, you know, I see lots of people, especially within that activism arena, and I'm sure it's in all arenas as well, you know, they do stand for things, but then you do see that perhaps money may come their way you think, oh, okay, that doesn't seem to align with the messages that you've been promoting for the last five years. I just can't do that. And I have been approached by people to work with them. And even though you know, I desperately need the money, I'm going to be honest, like I really do. I've said, No, or this doesn't work. I learned that early on that you can kind of move and manoeuvre yourself and shape shift in order to fit other people's requests, but it's not going to do you any favours in the long run. So it's just best to say no, at the very beginning, if your request doesn't suit the work that you do, and also I've got a background in working in the charity sector as well, you know, my first job was working with Anita Roddick at the body shops, and charitable foundation. So I started that in the 90s. And so I learned a lot from working with her. It was about workers rights, it was about, you know, sticking to what you believe, regardless, no matter what. And so learning that really early on has really supported me throughout everything I've done since and so I've been lucky to be able to work with brands who recognise that and respect the work I do,
Rhianna
you've sort of teased it, you've got somebody coming in to work on the graphics. I mean, you said it's going to be quite a special season. Tell us about it.
Lou
Yeah it was just something very different for Shade. So all of our seasons previously have been conversation based and interview based. And for season five, I'm doing something very different. And I realised that perhaps, you know, I wanted a break from conversations and interviewing. And I wanted to give the audience perhaps like a bit of a rest and like a space for regeneration, and maybe meditation and healing within the art space, because there's been so many problematic things that have happened and so many challenging things that have happened. I think people are tired. And I noticed specifically that my audience who are very focused on anti racism work, and anti racism, work within the arts have to kind of be very cerebral, about engaging with the work. It's all very intellectualised. And so I wanted to offer a respite from that. And I felt like I needed a respite from that. And so next season is all going to be about the healing power of the arts, we're not going to be talking about the healing power of the arts, we're going to be offering a space for which when the audience plug in and put their earphones on, they will be healed by what we will be offering them. So it's going to be a really interesting new sound space is going to be inspired by the healing power of the arts. We're going to be working with some amazing artists, global Black artists, that I'm very lucky to have an amazing sound designer and award winning sound designer on board, Axel Kacoutie. So he is the creative director of The Guardian podcast
Rhianna
Mouths open. That's incredible.
Lou
This is the first collaborative project that we've done. So excellent. I've been working together on this for six months. It's the first work of this kind that's happened in podcasting, but also in the art world. So I can't tell you any more or any of the details, it's going to be a big surprise. And there will be hopefully physical actual launch as well where people can turn up and have a nice time.
Matt
Just talking about disability access and studios. London has the worst studios for disability access that often downstairs or in basements often and not step three. I mean, is that the only issue or that other issues? What would you like to see in terms of the way when podcast companies build studios, they make them more accessible?
Lou
Yeah, so it's not just disabilities that you can physically see there's hidden disabilities as well, that you can't see. And there's issues that people aren't aware of. So it's not just about physical access. You know, a lot of people with disabilities can't be in full time employment. So that affects their finances. That's been my issue, you know, I have to still be supported by disability benefits, because I can't work full time. And so there's a financial kind of barrier to accessing studios. That's the first thing, but also there are hidden disabilities as well, that aren't visually apparent to people that don't know. So it's not just about walking up and down stairs or using public transport. My particular issue is that especially through the pandemic, you know, I'm immunocompromised so I can't mix with people and I can't travel on public transport. I can't be in buildings with other individuals at the moment. That's about area for me accessing those things. But some people with disabilities as well, there's an energy component. So travelling to preparing for the podcasts or pre production, then the actual recording. All of that is very difficult for people that have disabilities that affect their energy levels. So people won't be aware when they look at me or when they meet me, I can be as effervescent as anybody else. But it may perhaps take me a week to recover. So for example, last week, I went to an art exhibition because I had to do some preparation for a show, it literally did take me a week to physically recover from that. So that's the energy issues as well. So I can't work properly that week, I can sit in bed, and I can do some emails. But we just can't always work to the capacity that an able bodied person can. So those are the three issues that affect me personally, and I'm sure for other people in the disability community, they have varying issues as well. But I just really value the opportunity to be able to talk about this. So thank you so much for asking me.
Matt
No worries.
Rhianna
Lou, thank you so much for sharing all of your insights with us. Lovely chatting to Lou Mensah. Now I know neither of you were on that interview. So you've both heard it back. But what really struck me about speaking to Lou was something that we haven't really discussed on the podcast before, which was about disability, and about how home recording can suddenly open up a world of podcasting, which isn't accessible if you are having to go into studios. And the idea of not being able to literally get a wheelchair into a studio or being able to walk ups and having to walk up steps to get into a studio, I think is something that a lot of podcast creators, studios don't necessarily think about the accessibility aspect. So Reem, I know that you spoke to her in some detail as well before the podcast. So what really struck you about what Lou was saying, in terms of the disability aspect of her life?
Reem
I mean, I think it's great that she was able to do things from home to have that option to record online. And obviously, with like, post pandemic, there's a lot more technology that helps with recording and publishing podcasts online. And I know that she did want to go to studios, but it's not something that's an option for her because of her disability. But it's not just studios that need to be more accessible. I think within the podcasting world in general with things like networking events, and awards should also be more accessible for people with disabilities, because for Lou's case, for example, like she can't attend, something that she might be nominated for, like in person if they don't meet our requirements, or networking is a huge, huge part of development for a podcaster. Because you get to meet people who can give you advice you can get to meet people who will help move your podcast forward, and it helps when it's in person. And if that event is not accessible for people who have certain disabilities, then it's not going to be an option for them at all. And they might fall behind, obviously, in Lou's case, like it's great that she's gotten to where she is now. And she's obviously doing amazing. We also have to think about all the other podcasters that have a range of other disabilities as well. And how the industry can try to be a bit more accessible for them.
Rhianna
Adam, this is the first proper sort of arts podcast, I suppose that we've discussed in depth, so far on PodPod. So visual arts are not something necessarily that you would associate with an easy subject to podcast about.
Adam
One thing I was really interested in is what you're saying about sponsorship and the fact that two of the main sponsors of I think it's the first series of Shade are actually art galleries, which is really interesting, because they're not the sort of organisation that you typically associate with sponsoring anything for the most part, let alone in an audio medium. But it's it's a really interesting example of how podcasting allows you to reach audiences that you maybe wouldn't necessarily think of both both from a creative perspective and as an advertiser. And I think it's also worth podcasters looking for sponsorship in kind of their own areas not necessarily going after the companies that sponsor a tonne of podcasts. But what organisations would really benefit from association with your brand specifically, go out reach out to them proactively, because you never know they might be in the market for more marketing opportunities.
Rhianna
That's a really good tip. Really interesting. Great advice from Lou and thank you so much to Adam and of course for Reem joining us when she's feeling rubbish, much appreciated. Thank you so much to everybody for listening. Have a wonderful Christmas. Do you know what would be a really lovely Christmas present is if you subscribed to PodPod and gave us a little Christmassy review. It'd be very much appreciated. Thank you again to Lou Mensah for the great chat. The podcast is produced by Emma Corsham for Haymarket Business Media. Find out more on everything that we have to offer in the world of podcasting on PodPod.com. I'm your host Rhianna Dhillon and PodPod will be back in two weeks so I will see you in 2023. Have a great Christmas, bye.
