This is an automatically generated transcript of the PodPod episode ‘Aiwan Obinyan: How podcasting amplifies queer voices’. We apologise for any errors in spelling and grammar.
Rhianna Dhillon
Hello, and welcome to PodPod: the podcast all about podcasting made by podcasters for podcasters. And that was still the best tagline I could come up with. My name is Rhianna Dhillon. And I'm joined this week by Matt Hill, who runs Rethink Audio and is the co founder of the British Podcast Awards. And also Reem Makari. A journalist and PodPod researcher, welcome both. Thank you for joining me.
Matt Hill
It's a pleasure to be here, Rhianna. Hello.
Rhianna
Hello. On today's episode, Reem and I got to chat to Aiwan Obinyan, founder of AiAi Studios, and she's also a senior podcast producer at Gay Times. And she is a woman that I am completely in awe of, she's a filmmaker. She's a producer. She's also a composer.
Reem
Has the biggest LinkedIn page you'll ever see.
Rhianna
And for the first time on UK Black Pride: A Time Capsule, which is a podcast she produced, she presents it. Matt, what did you think about all that?
Matt
Yeah, it's really interesting to hear someone speak very honestly about like their reluctance at being a presenter, I think there used to be a thing where, you know, if you were going for a kind of producer job at the BBC, like, I used to have a thing where if I was going for like a job interview or something, I had like a stock anecdote about a presenter locking themselves in the toilet just before a link was about to start on the radio. And you'd have to kind of go on and do the link yourself. To kind of show that you could be a bit of an all rounder, and I think certainly in podcasting, you know that the feeling is that you are an all rounder, but actually that division between producer and presenter is still quite stark. And unless you have the kind of flight time on the mic, you will always feel a little bit like a fraud. So I would say to any producer who has any aspirations to be a presenter in the future, you just got to start right now. You can't just wait until it's your time, you've got to practice and do those little assignments, do little vox pops or whatever. Just get yourself on mic, even if it's really uncomfortable, and and hopefully you will feel a lot better as you get on and you will enjoy it.
Rhianna
That's really good advice. And we talk about that in this interview, and perhaps the unexpected way that she ended up presenting. So here she is, in all her glory. Aiwan Obinyan. Welcome to PodPod. Thank you so much for joining us. It's a real pleasure to talk to you.
Aiwan Obinyan
Thank you so much for having me. Thank you for the opportunity.
Rhianna
It's gonna be great. So there's so much actually to discuss with your podcasting career. Because you founded your podcast production company AiAi Studios back in 2012. So can you tell us a little bit about how the podcasting market has changed and evolved over the past decade? And what was it like at the time, when, you know, podcasts, you were still having to explain to people what podcasting was what it meant.
Aiwan
Yeah, I do have a little disclaimer to make in that I Studios was founded, I think it was 2013. For the first few years, it was mostly audio. So I've always been working in audio, so music, sound design, music for film, theatre sound, all of that good stuff. And then about four years ago, I decided to focus solely on podcasting. Because there was a bit of a boom, particularly with like the pandemic, and so on, so forth. So that's when it really became a full on podcast production house. So I would say that in terms of my training, I didn't know much about podcasting. Nobody did, like you said, you know, it wasn't something that you really mentioned or spoke about. And so in a way, it was a bit of a baptism of fire when I came to podcasting, because although I understood audio, and I understood about the production and the engineering and writing, because of my documentary film background, and sort of narrative and storytelling, podcasting is very different because it is just audio, and it's just that one medium that you're using to tell the story. And so it has different demands; the whole focus on audio quality, and so on, so forth. So it was a challenge, but one that I'm glad that I took on, and it's definitely a journey and I feel like I'm learning every day, including like teaching my clients as well and all that good stuff.
Rhianna
When you talk about you know, four years ago, when you really decided to concentrate on podcasting. What did you want the focus to be at that point, you know about narrative and about audio, but how did you sort of drill down into what you really wanted to be working on?
Aiwan
Our tagline at AiAi Studios is telling stories that challenge the status quo. So I knew that I wanted to work with people to tell the stories of those who have been historically marginalised. So at AiAi Studios, we have a bit of a triangle, and there's three points of the triangle. And I'm always going on about that to my team. And those three points of the triangle are LGBTQ plus issues, and then women's issues and rights and empowerment. And then stories about black and brown people, essentially. So those are the stories that I really want to tell, and if you actually look at my clients, you'll see that that runs through all of the clients that I have, and their values and their ethos, and all of the stories that we tell. So every podcast in some way touches on those issues and those demographics.
Reem
Your portfolio with podcast production is huge. I mean, I've taken a look at your LinkedIn and the list just went on and on and on. You've had such amazing projects on there, what have been some of your work that you've been most proud of?
Aiwan
So I think it was probably the first ever podcast I worked on, because that one, it was so in depth and so intense. And I learned so much. And some of the hours were crazy. I remember being up until three four in the morning editing this podcast, and it was the Small Axe podcast for BBC sounds that went with the Small Axe TV series by the director, Steve McQueen. And I worked with Isis Thompson on that. And I produced one of the episodes the one on intimacy, and it was intense. I feel like I grew overnight, I think I learned so many things, everything from writing, how to write for audio. When you write for documentary, you can rely on the images to tell some of the story. But you don't have that benefit with audio. Everything has to be done through the medium of storytelling. Now, of course, there are different techniques that you can use. So for example, the music can guide you, a sound design element here can tell you something that's about to happen. But really and truly you have to write so that a person listening on their headphones on a commute can follow the story from start to end without any other aid whatsoever. And so yeah, it was so intense. Oh my god, I remember being up. I remember editing, like as if I was half asleep. I remember just being at my keyboard, just half asleep editing this episode. It was incredible. And I think it's definitely the moment where I realised I want to do more of this.
Reem
Who supported you through that period, since it was so intense?
Aiwan
Yeah. So Isis Thompson, who I then went on to work with on the Amazon Prime series, the Underground Railroad, which was also a partner series to another TV series by Barry Jenkins.
Rhianna
Oh my God, you've worked with, like incredible filmmakers as well.
Aiwan
Yeah, it's been amazing. It's been amazing. I'm very, very blessed to have done so.
Rhianna
How do you think that crossover has kind of benefited podcasts?
Aiwan
I think one of the things that podcasting allows you to do is to go in depth. I think sometimes with a TV series, there's only so much you can tell in one 20, 45 minute episode, right? It has to be entertaining, it has to hit points in certain ways. And, and all of that. And there's so many considerations, just visually, and then of course, sonically, but I think with podcasting, you can, you can go deep, right, because you've just got the audio, you can have historians, you can have storytellers, you can use your sound design to link things, you you can just go in depth, I think. And so it's almost like it's almost like the reference book that goes with a documentary. The podcast is like that reference book that goes with the TV series, in essence. So it gives the viewer a chance to like, oh, I want to know more about this. I want to know exactly what the Underground Railroad was. So I'm going to go to this podcast and it's going to tell me that in this really in depth, rich, multi layered way.
Rhianna
Do you find that people are doing that like going instead perhaps to Google or other kind of methods? Do you think they aren't going to their podcast feeds and typing in something and hoping because I realised I started to do that if I'm interviewing somebody, I will look for an interview with them in a podcast, rather than reach out and look for a written interview now, which I only just realised as a very different way that I used to do it 10 years ago.
Aiwan
Absolutely. I think search has changed a lot like even when I was speaking to Acast. So we just recently released a show called Stacked and we had like quite a big meeting with Acast about the distribution of the show. And one of the things that they hammered home, and I'm glad that they did, because it's something that I was already thinking and have been doing is that when you title your podcast, you need to title it so that it hits your SEO, search engine optimization. So that people there are keywords in the title, because people will search for a specific thing based on what they've watched, based on what they've experienced, they will actually search, if they've read a book, they will search for the author of that book, or the title of that book, and so on, so forth. So I do think the way people search is definitely changing. And I do think that podcasting plays a part in that. And I think as podcasting continues to grow and evolve and expand, I think more and more people will seek out podcasts, almost like you go to a library to seek out a book to go more in depth on a particular subject, right?
Reem
Along with your work with AiAi Studios, you also are a senior podcast producer at Gay Times. And you've worked across shows like Snatched, and Media Watch. How has that experience been like for you? And how has it been different than your work with AiAi?
Aiwan
So I think with Gay Times, so Gay Times, yeah, they're a client of AiAi Studios, but obviously, they are their own. They are a publication agency. And they definitely have their own editorial direction that they take. For those who maybe don't know, I mean, the name of the company says it already. But Gay Times, is a media company that speaks to LGBTQ plus people and their allies. And so when they came to me to do the podcast, they actually came to me with a range of shows that they wanted to do. So there was Media Watch, there was Snatched, there was Tag Talks, and there was Queer Me Out: Chasing Tales, which is a partnership with W hotels. And so as a company, normally, we get one show at a time from a particular client, it's like, Okay, here's a show, we're going to work on that we're going to finish that. Whereas with Gay Times, it was four shows. And trying to develop the narratives for four separate shows, making sure that the brand is represented well, that we're catering to our community in a sensitive, caring, innovative, educational without preaching kind of way, both to the community and to their allies. And obviously, they're very different. So Media Watch is about an exploration of the media and how it has dealt with LGBTQ plus issues historically, and presently, then you've got Snatched, which is about RuPaul's Drag Race. So it's almost like the two different sides of your brain. It's like, you know, one minute, it's like, oh, the conflama, the drama. And then on the other side is like so in 1970...
Rhianna
How does that crossover work? Because I've listened to Snatched, I've listened to Media Watch. And in the episode I was listening to specifically in Media Watch. Yeah, Media Watch. So in this episode with Josh Rivers, they do talk about RuPaul's Drag Race, but in, I guess, a much more analytical way than perhaps Snatched does. But I was kind of listening to that they they know that that is a reference point that their audiences are going to understand. So can you talk about how you try and interweave these things that you know everyone understands and gets, but doing it making sure that you are reaching almost quite different audiences at the same time? Is that the aim?
Aiwan
No, I think you're right. Because what I find when I meet with a client, particularly for the first time, one of the things that I tried to get to is who are you? What is the message that you're trying to put out into the world? And what are the guiding principles that govern all that you are, if that makes sense? Like what are the things you do say? What are the things that you don't say? What is the language you use? What don't you use? What are the topics that are off limits, and the ones that are welcomed wholeheartedly, and I think with all of this information, I'm able to then put together something where I then take the approach, okay, what would be a playful version of this? What would be a really serious analytical version of this? What would be a deep historical version of this that still represents them, but across multiple formats, genres, narrative styles, and so on? It's almost like making you work across many platforms. So it means that when I go to Snatched, and when you go to Media Watch and when you go to Tag Talks, yes, they're different. But they all are Gay Times. Sonically, they're Gay Times, narrative, they're Gay Times; the hit points that we're hitting are Gay Times, that energy is Gay Times. It's always warm. It's always inviting. It's always encouraging. it interrogates gently rather than antagonistically. So yeah, so this is what I'm always aiming for with a client is to make sure that their values are mirrored across all of the shows that they do.
Reem
With the amount of podcasts that Gay Times has released, what impact do you think the publication has had on amplifying queer voices in the podcasting community or just in general on on the LGBTQ plus community?
Aiwan
I think one of the things I've noticed with my clients who are publishers moving into the podcasting space, is that podcasting audiences are very different than publishing audiences. And what I found with them is that when they go into podcasting, they attract a whole different audience. It's not the same audience as their publishing audience. And so I think what that tells me is that, as an organisation, you you need to try different mediums, because that's how you reach those people of your community who aren't going to read your magazine, they're not going to go to the store and buy a magazine, they're not going to download whatever app it is, they're not going to do that. But what they will do is that they've got Spotify. You know, most people have got Spotify, they've got you know, Apple music or whatever. And they will search and if you come up using your SEO titles and stuff, then suddenly you're reaching an audience that you wouldn't otherwise reach.
Reem
So do you think more LGBTQ plus publications should be investing into podcasting?
Aiwan
Yeah, absolutely. I do. I think it's a medium that's growing. It's a very young industry. It's still finding its feet. It's still a bit wild west-y, it does still feel sometimes, like you're throwing your audio into a void.
Rhianna
How do you kind of envision curating that wild west then? So like you say, if companies want to put a podcast out there, making sure that you're not just throwing out a random one, just because it's zeitgeisty? How do you kind of ensure like, longevity, I suppose.
Aiwan
I think the biggest thing is what I said about Gay Times is like, who are you? Why, why do you want to do this? What is your message? Who are you trying to reach? Specifically? What do they even want to hear? I think that's really important. And trying to do your thing, rather than doing what you see other people doing. Because I think that's where you become A) more authentic and B) more targeted in your approach. And and I think if you follow that through, and you stick with, because another thing with podcasting is consistency, so many people do their six episodes, and this, that and the other and they don't actually stick with it. Sometimes you got to stick with it, even if it feels like it's not necessarily doing the things you thought it was going to do. Stick with it anyway, because there is a tipping point. And also set your expectations as well. You're not just going to release one and get 100,000 listens in week one, it's not going to be like that. So set your expectations as well and follow it through, be consistent, know why you're doing it.
Rhianna
Yeah.
Reem
What kind of feedback have you gotten from the queer community based on your work with Gay Times?
Aiwan
With Tag Talks, one thing we noticed is that there's another side to podcasting. Yes, there's the audience, the wider audience who, you know, listen on Spotify, or whatever. But there's also something to be said about building relationships and deeper understandings with key stakeholders in a company as well. So what we found with Tag Talks, so Tag is the CEO of Gay Times. He was the host of Tag Talks. He brought on people that you know, is like Amir Ashour and Greyson Chance and so on, so forth. And what we found when we released that was that it's almost like people hearing directly from the CEO of the company that they're dealing with and doing business with, and so the feedback he was getting from those key stakeholders was, Oh, it's so good to hear you and to hear your thoughts on these things and to see where you're, where you're going and where the company is headed. And just to see a different side of you like a more intimate, resonant side to you. So I thought that was very interesting, beyond just audience and actually into the business side, the stakeholder side, that internal side as well.
Rhianna
As you said, you've kind of been behind the scenes in a in a lot of podcasts spaces. And now you've moved in with your current podcast, UK Black Pride: A Time Capsule, the first time that you have been in front of the microphone. But before we kind of get into that, what have you learned about interviewing techniques from the podcasts that you were producing before you started getting into presenting? Because the subjects that you talk about are interrogative, but they're very sensitively handled, you ask really kind of searching questions. And you can tell that your interviewees are always really appreciative of the space to be able to talk about something that they might not have been able to do before, at least not on the kind of platform you're giving them. So yeah, what have you learned about the kind of interview process before you began presenting?
Aiwan
Yeah, I've worked with a lot of hosts. I've seen it all, I've seen a lot of things...
Rhianna
Weariness in the voice there.
Aiwan
But no, it's incredible working with different hosts and seeing their different approaches. I think watching people host shows, one of the things I learned is that it's really important to connect with the subject matter on as deep as level as you can. The human connection to me is more important than anything else. So, you know, my my first few questions, might not even make it into the show, I realised that you need to find a rapport with the guest. I think that's super important. And I think you need to bring yourself into that space as much as you can. Obviously, the spaces I work in, they intersect with who I am. So maybe that's a bit easier. Maybe if I was doing like, I don't know, some dead dry business podcast? I don't know, maybe maybe it might be a bit different. I'm not sure. But, you know, I think connecting with the subject matter, you know, is super important and with the person as well, and finding that common ground, I think is really important. And also not stressing so much about the questions. Yes, have your questions, but if you go off on one a little bit, that's okay. You're gonna edit it anyway. And it's fine. Go on that tangent, you can find some really beautiful gems. So like in episode one of the UK Black Pride Time Capsule podcast with Lady Phyll, you know, the first thing she says, You know, I'm a bit of a politician. And I went with that. I was like, All right. Okay, so I've got a dig deeper, she was like well, you can try. Yeah. And then we had a bit of a laugh, you know, I mean, there's a conversation about the AC and then we've got one about bodies.
Rhianna
I was gonna say, you do keep in these little moments, which I guess actually, if you think about visual documentary making, they have started to keep that in a little bit more like the person getting comfortable, getting set up or making a comment that is not really supposed to be filmed, but kind of it kind of humanises, right, you're like you're lifting the curtain. Is that is that a technique that you have brought over from your documentary side, your kind of film documentary side? Or is that just something that you like to listen to yourself?
Aiwan
I think it's weird because I don't even see it as a technique. I think it's just me, I like to be playful. A subject matter can be serious. And the things we talk about in the podcast are serious, but we're still human beings, right? We're still alive and wanting to play and explore and have fun and flirt and chat sh... Oh, can we say that? We can just, you know, flirt and chat shit and stuff like that, you know? So I feel like I, It's human. I always want the human, that that's what I want. Because at the end of the day, we connect through storytelling, we understand through Yeah, other people's stories. And through that human connection, we understand ourselves sometimes reflected through other people, you know?
Rhianna
Yeah. Yes.
Reem
Speaking of the first episode, there's a bit in the intro where you say, if you're queer, if you're black, basically, welcome home was how you ended intro bit, and I thought that was very, a very beautiful way to start the podcast. Do you see podcasts as the safe space for queer people to come to? Do you see it as like a community that people can can find comfort in, and that's why podcasting is a very good thing for the LGBT community?
Aiwan
Yeah, I mean, I think podcasting is intimate, right, most people listen to a podcast are listening on their headphones. And that instantly seals you off from the rest of the world. So I always think of podcasting as a type of home or safe, a warm space and intimate space, where it's just you and the person talking, and you are in your own little bubble until it stops, and then you sort of come out of it. So yes, it can be as long as you stay, I guess, within the safe spaces, because there are also podcasts out there that aren't safe for LGBTQ plus people that do speak hateful things and do you know marginalise even further, you know, LGBTQ plus people. Or black people. Or whatever it is, yeah, essentially.
Rhianna
So when you started this podcast, or when you thought, oh, yeah, this will be a really lovely thing to do. What kind of changed it from this idea to becoming this is it's called a time capsule, it's going to be buried, right? And then it's going to be dug up again in 100 years, or that it might be? Like, I'm never really sure how time capsules work. Are they supposed to be dug up? Or are they just there in case they're ever found?
Aiwan
Yeah, I think it's like, I kind of took inspiration from them old school children's programme. Yeah, I remember. Remember? Yeah. And then and then your, your school teacher would then take, right, our unit of work this term is time capsules, you know? Then you'd be like, Oh, we're gonna make a time capsule. So we're all going to make one thing, we're going to put it in here and some kid in 100 years time is gonna find this thing. You're like, Oh, yeah. Amazing. Then you've got that one kid is like, Yeah, I'm going to put my racing car in. Yeah, I don't want to do no work. And then you've got the other kid who's going to draw picture is going to be you know, then this other kids, I'm going to bring in a picture of me and my family from our holiday at Brighton Beach. You know, we're gonna put it all in. You're so excited.
Reem
I've done that in school, and we dug it up in a week.
Aiwan
Yeah, oh my god. So So I guess that was the the inspiration for the UK Black Pride one is that it's, it's unified by a common theme. So in the case of the children one, it's unified by the fact that it's a class of children, right? They're all in one class. And they're all making this time capsule together. That is the theme, it's school children in 1996. Right. So the UK Black Pride is unified by the theme of this is about UK black pride, a celebration for a future generation. But inside the time capsule, everything is disparate, the racing car, the picture from the beach, the picture that you've drawn about your family and your I don't know, your sandwich or whatever. And then, and then in our time capsule, each episode is its own thing. So if you actually listen to each episode, the music is different, it's sonically different, the themes are different. It can stand on its own, just like the racing car. But it works as a whole in terms of the time capsule when it's dug up. So that was my thinking behind it, basically, yeah.
Rhianna
And then when you you had this idea to do it, and you you knew who you know, where you wanted to be doing these interviews, the kind of people that you wanted to speak to, but then what surprised you; what came out of the interviews that you perhaps weren't expecting to hear?
Aiwan
Man so much, listen, I feel like I should train to be a psychologist. I'm not gonna lie. I was, I was. I was sat in that audio van for eight hours at UK black price, we had an audio van with AudioMango. And I sat in that van the whole day. And it was literally like people just coming into the van. And then as soon as that door close closes, it's dark. And it's super intimate. And so it literally people were telling me things. And I was just like, sometimes I'd come out of the van just to breathe just to I don't know, it was it was a lot. It was a lot it was. Yeah. But some of the discussions were really, really deep. We spoke about everything from sex, to sexuality, to trauma, childhood trauma, to racial abuse, to raising families, adoption, and, you know, so many things, protest, struggle, strife, the work that still needs to be done, the healing that needs to be done, the wounds that still haven't healed, but you want to be healed. The apologies that you wish you'd gotten that you didn't get, the homophobia that you're still experiencing, you know, trans rights, lack of trans inclusion. It was just so much and everybody came in, and they literally just offloaded for 10, 15, 20 minutes, and then they're out of the van. Then I'm like, Let me drink a little bit of water.
Rhianna
Because you, Reem, you kind of touched on this earlier, but when Reem asked you, you know, who was supporting you through that time. So for this, because you know, you podcast, we think this is really fun like I'm really enjoying this interview, I'm going to go away, I'm going to think about it, it's not going to devastate me, it's not going to leave me with wounds or memories or trauma. And for you, presumably, these kinds of conversations do and it's a shared trauma. So how, how do you as a host, then, you're taking on quite a lot? How do you sort of look after yourself that sort of self care, after listening to a lot of this?
Aiwan
Ha, it's so funny, because I asked this to a few of my, like Lady Phyll, I asked that to her, like, how did she take care of herself, and I remember prodding and pushing her. And now you're asking me the same thing. I've now got to think about how I do self care. And the answer is, I'm not very good at it. To be fair, because I think I came out of the van, at the end of the day, drunk two shots of rum, ate a couple packs of Haribo, went to a hotel with my team, we popped a bottle of champagne. And then I think I just passed out to be fair, and then a two days later, I had surgery on my knee. And then I think, yeah, and then I literally then had to recover for like a week. And I think that's when I did some of this sort of decompressing, I also think listening weirdly, listening back to the interviews. There's something about listening back to them, that places them in the place that they need to be, so it's not held inside you anymore. It's now outside of you. And now you're almost processing and synthesising what you spoke about. And it's almost like now it's outside of you, if that makes sense. I'm also blessed, I have a therapist. So I go to therapy, sometimes every couple of weeks or once a month, or whatever, but she's brilliant, as well. And I've done a lot of work in that in that area, as well. So I have a lot more resilience than I used to have, you know.
Reem
You've clearly put a lot of energy into creating this podcast, mentally, physically, everything in between. And was this because do you did you consider the podcast to be a personal project for you? And was that also why you chose to host it?
Aiwan
So okay, so the first thing is, I'm a reluctant host. So I'll explain why with that. I think the second thing is it was our first in house show. So one of the things that we're going to be doing from 2023 is producing our own shows, rather than just producing for other people. So this was our first in house show. So there was definitely an investment of myself as a business owner, but also as a member of the black queer community as well. It's something, it's like a labour of love. It's something that I wanted to do for us to have as a document and archive of our time on this planet, essentially; in terms of hosting, I wasn't supposed to host, I was supposed to get in that van. And I even made every one, I remember saying to everyone, so guys, what you're gonna do, you're gonna put my question at the start of your answer, because I'm not going to be in it. You can actually hear me on every interview saying that to everyone. And then and then I did the interviews with like, Lady Phyll, and Aisha and Josh, and so on. And the interviews were so back and forth and so interactive, that when I started cutting it, and removing myself, it didn't sound right. There was nothing to glue it together.
Rhianna
So that was in the edit process that you decided that, I, Wow, that does not come across at all.
Aiwan
Yeah, it was mad. It was so mad. And then I was like, I've got to be in this thing. Because even if I bring in another host, it's gonna be weird for them talking. But then I'm interviewing. You know, I mean, there were moments in the van where we're just going back and forth, because my experiences are coming out. I'm sort of going oh my god. Yeah, my sisters did this to me and this homophobe and they're like, Oh, my God. Yeah. And then my family and they were like, girl, you know? So, you know, I'm just in it, basically. And I couldn't get out of it.
Rhianna
What have you learned from that experience?
Aiwan
Find a host before you start the show.
Rhianna
No, that you're an amazing host!
Aiwan
Oh, thank you. I appreciate that. You're very kind.
Reem
You being in it as well adds to that safe space because then seeing whoever is answering the questions be so connected to a host I feel like that just adds to the whole dynamic of podcasting. Would you now consider hosting another show based on this experience?
Aiwan
Oh, Lord, I don't know. You know what it is? Yeah. I, it's so much work like I was up until 10 or 11, two nights ago, doing episode four because people don't realise you do the, you know, you do the interview. Great, wonderful, beautiful interview done. Then you come to the thing. You've got to listen to the interview. Then you've got to chunk it down and build your paper script. Great. Then you edit it the audio, then it's like, oh, now we need a VO here. And we need a VO here, and oh my god, I've got to do the intro to that specific episode. On this episode, we're talking about this, and then the outro on next week's episode we're doing, so now you've got all these VOs, you've got to write the VOs, they've got to make sense. And you have to record the VO. So I'm like in my wardrobe with a duvet then just going on next week's episode, then you get that then you've got to edit that then you've got to chop it, and then you've got to put the music bed and then you've got to... It's a lot. It's a lot of work. If I had a team, I would be up for it. But I think if it was on my own again, it's a lot of work - but I'm just very grateful.
Rhianna
Well so this wasn't done through AIAI? Or is AiAi productions just you, a one woman show?
Aiwan
Oh, no. So AIAi Studios, I do have a team. So I've got Adedamola, who is production assistant, I've got a couple of editors and sound designers, however, and this is the problem when you are closely linked to a show is that I became very precious and OCD. And I didn't give it to my editors. I didn't give it to my sound designers; I did it all myself.
Rhianna
Okay, it's all coming out now.
Aiwan
This is the problem.
Reem
When we were talking before this interview, you mentioned that you were also working on a survey. About people of colour in the LGBT community and how they view podcasting?
Aiwan
Yes, yes, absolutely.
Reem
Are there any insights that you can maybe give us from the survey?
Aiwan
Okay, so with this podcast survey, the aim of it was to find out, obviously, we are a black, queer owned production company, and we are going into the producing our own in house shows. So we wanted to find out what do our community want to listen to? What stories that they feel are missing? Where do they listen, that sort of things, we went really in depth, we've got so many responses. And so what I'll do is I'll share a couple I thought were particularly pertinent. Okay, so what genres do you enjoy listening to the most? The top two were society and culture, and arts and entertainment. So that those were really big? And then what kind of shows would you like to see? And what do you think is missing? One of the key responses was like queerness in Africa, queer people of colour issues, more educational and fun podcast led by QTPOC. So that's queer and trans people of colour, more shows for over 40s, black queer podcasts. I thought this was interesting. After listening to an ad in a podcast, how often have you made a purchase of a product? And 71.6% said Never. So I don't really know what the effectiveness is of ads is; I know that that's one of the ways that people try to monetize their podcasts. But I don't know. Maybe there's some innovation to be done there.
Rhianna
I think definitely. We've kind of talked on the podcast about like the, you know, the little use this code, Yeah, all the rest of it. And then it's like, you have to remember the code? And how do you even remember it? Are you sort of, we're sort of trained to ignore adverts now? Do we skip them, etc? So how do you actually finance yourselves?
Aiwan
We produce for other people. So we have clients, and obviously, they pay for our services. And then for our in house show the UK black pride one that we were proudly supported by Gay Times, so they helped fund the on the day stuff. So that helped us to get the audio van, pay for people, all of that good stuff. So that was taken care of, and then the production side, all the stuff that's happening now is paid for by AiAi Studios, essentially. And then that's an investment by me into our first in house show in the hopes that we can then leverage that to this is what we can do as a company. Let's now build our own shows. Let's pitch, let's see who we can get on board, you know, all the usual sort of business considerations that that come into play when trying to fund something.
Rhianna
That was really interesting, what you were just saying about the survey; Reem, any immediate thoughts that kind of stood out for you?
Reem
The missing shows bit was very interesting, because I think there's there is a lot of representation in podcasting for people from the LGBT community in general, which is a good thing, but I do find that for people of colour within the LGBT community, there is a lack of or not as much representation. Yes. And I think it's important that people are showing that they want more of that. What do you think is, you personally, is missing from podcasting in terms of for LGBT people?
Aiwan
Yeah, I find that the shows that are out there tend to be a bit one dimensional. I feel sometimes like LGBTQ plus people are treated almost as a monolith sometimes, and sometimes I feel like that Monolith is built on a white gay man model. Do you see what I mean? And then then that's who we all are, if that makes sense. And actually, we're not a monolith. And actually black and brown people are a global majority, which then if you follow that through black and brown queer people must also be a global majority. So just from a percentage perspective, so I feel like I would like to see more innovation in that area, I'd like to see more attention being paid to our stories and our histories as well. And also to see more like, I know that it said arts and entertainment and society and culture, but I feel like you know, audiences aren't dumb. And if something's good, they will open up to it. So let's see more innovation in other genres as well for LGBTQ plus people of colour as well, because you don't know until you hear it that you like it. Or that you want it right. Yeah. So taking a chance, essentially. But I get it money, capitalism, money, sure.
Rhianna
Was it maybe in episode one of the Black UK Pride podcast? Maybe when you were talking about how I mean, it's called the Black UK Pride podcast.
Aiwan
UK Black Pride.
Rhianna
Sorry. Yeah. So you, I think you said that there aren't so many people who are from Asia, for example, who are represented in that way? So do you think that the structure or the the kind of podcasts that you've been working on, is that easily kind of applicable to people from other ethnicities and other backgrounds who might be able to look to the work that you've done as a structure and kind of use that as a springboard to create their own spaces where they feel comfortable?
Aiwan
Yeah, I mean, what I love about the clients I work with is that it's across people of colour, if that makes sense. So one of the shows that I've just recently produced for gal-dem, was Our Place Is Here, and it was telling the stories of Filipino migrant domestic workers, and it was told in their voices. So they wrote these essays. And then we turned them into this sort of immersive sound design show, podcast, sorry. And we did one version in English, and then one version in Tagalog. And what I found with that, is that with that, I then got a request from another organisation who work in the LGBTQ plus space with refugees and asylum seekers of colour, who are LGBTQ plus, and they were like, that's amazing. I didn't even know that you could do that, like a podcast is in both English and in their native language, but in their voice, you know, no matter how broken their English is, it's important that their story is told in their voice, because that's the most authentic, most heartfelt, I was nearly weeping in that, in that recording session, it was so powerful. I mean, we're all on the verge of crying, it was just really just tissues at dawn, you know. So it was, I think that's the kind of thing that I want to be a part of, is being a part of a change, and showing people how they can do it, and then empowering them to do it. Because we need more of those stories across the board, across our communities all the time, not one offs. Yeah.
Reem
What are some some queer or just identity focused podcasts that have done something like that, that have inspired you?
Aiwan
Hoo! That's a good question. That's a good question. There's a show I listen. I don't know if this really hits it but it's such a good show. And it's huge. Now. It's called the Blind Boy Podcast. And what I like about it, I mean, I don't know if he's queer or anything. But what I like about it is that it's in his, he's Irish. It's in his voice. He tells the story of Irish culture and mythology, in the most compelling way, through storytelling, weaving disparate bits, they feel like disparate bits of history. And then he weaves them to come back to this one point, so that he'll like take glassmaking and then he'll go like, into the history of, I don't know, mediaeval knights or whatever. And then he'll go like this, and you'll go like this, and he'll join these dots. And then he'll come back to this central thing. And I've learned so much about just Irish culture, Irish history, Irish mythology in his voice, so he's like, feck this, and feck this. And he's got that brilliant Irish sense of humour. And it's so immersive and it makes me go, oh, wow, I wonder what this would look like in a queer context. I wonder what this would look like from a black perspective, from an African perspective, from an Asian perspective. I wonder what this looks like if we explode it out into all of these other other spheres, you know, so that's definitely one that makes me go oh. He's onto something. And he is.
Rhianna
And I've just seen on his Twitter that he He has a hashtag in his bio that says actually autistic. And so presumably then you, you're talking about neuro diverse voices as well, which again, we don't hear enough of in podcasting spaces.
Aiwan
I think the medium of podcasts and just based on listening to the blind boy speak about him being autistic and what podcasting does for him, there's something about the intimacy of it. There's not a lot of noise. There's something about it that I just think, obviously, I don't know loads about it so I don't want to speak as an authority, but it just sounds like podcasting is a space that I think is very welcoming of neurodivergence, in in the way that maybe some other art forms maybe aren't always if that makes sense. Yeah. And I think that's something that should be explored more, I think, and I'd like to see more autistic and, you know, ADHD, people being in that space and seeing what they produce.
Rhianna
Before we wrap up, I just wanted to ask, you know, how you are, you're creating this space. And I think before that, I think a lot of LGBTQ plus people were just expected to find podcasts that weren't necessarily for them, but to just, you know, take what they wanted from them. So on the flip side of that, do you find that your audiences are purely from LGBTQ plus communities? Or are there straight allies who might listen in and take something from what your communities have to say?
Aiwan
Yeah, so definitely, I think our audiences mix. So it's that sort of three prong triangle that I spoke about earlier. It's women, it's LGBTQ plus people, it's, you know, people of colour, and our allies, you know, so we do have a lot of allies who believe in the issues that were talking about and want to champion our voices. And hear our side, and find out information basically about about the struggle. I also find that a lot of straight people come to, it's almost like they've heard something in the mainstream media, and they want an alternative narrative, I think it's what I like about podcasting, actually, is that it's almost like a source of, it's an alternative source of the mainstream narrative. And I think people like that, I think that's why people will sit and listen to a three hour podcast or a two hour podcast in a way that they wouldn't, you know, on, like, say, regular TV where things have to be, like 20 minutes or 45 minutes, you know, I think it's, it's just an alternative to the noise of the mainstream. And I find a lot of people gravitate to what we do for that reason. It's just an alternative, you know.
Rhianna
Is there an area that you're particularly proud of having been able to talk about, that you feel hasn't really been covered very well, elsewhere? Because when I heard the conversation about cancel culture, for example, on Media Watch, I was like, I have not heard this perspective before. And that's making me listen to it so much more detail and depth than any of the other conversations. I've heard about cancelled culture.
Aiwan
I think what we do at AiAi Studios is we ask, what don't we know? And then that's the angle that we take. So I wouldn't say that it's that we do it better, or that we have some special unique thing over other podcast makers. I just think we offer an alternative narrative. We say, Okay, here's that side that you've heard. But here's a different side. So we did that with gak-dem with the Reclaimed and Rewritten where we explored the Tulsa massacre, from the perspective. So it was 100 year anniversary of the Tulsa massacre last year. And we explored that story, not just from the perspective of Tulsa and America, but also from the perspective of similar things that have happened in the UK. And I don't think that that's been done before. But there are loads of shows about the Tulsa massacre. But we just offered like, what don't we know, particularly as people in the UK and what's our British lens on it, the black British lens on it. So the New Cross fire, Broadwater Farm, the Notting Hill riots and so on, so forth. So yeah.
Rhianna
That's really interesting.
Reem
What is the future of AIAi in the next, say, 10 years? What do you want to see? What do you want to complete?
Aiwan
I think I definitely in the immediate future, we definitely want to produce more of our own in house shows, and really take control of the narrative from idea all the way through to distribution and really hone in on those stories that sometimes our clients can't cover it because it's just not in line with what they want to do, or it's not within their budget. It's not within their remit, that's not their focus. And so we want to do those shows and we want to explore beyond conversational podcasts, we want to explore playing around more with audio. So we kind of touched on that in the UK Black Pride Time capsule. There's lots of sound design, playing around with field recordings, a really immersive storytelling. So I want to do a lot more of that. I want to work in genres I haven't worked in before just almost to just exercise and find out what that muscle is for me as well. I want to grow the team. I want to work with more brilliant producers, and sound designers and editors and just be that person who offers an alternative narrative but in a really compelling, engaging, entertaining, immersive, powerful way, basically.
Rhianna
Aiwan, thank you so much for joining us. It's been such a pleasure to talk to you, I really enjoyed this whole discussion.
Reem
Also, thank you for the like the work that you've been doing with podcasting, like to the amount of the initiative that you've done with really showing diversity and representation, working on this type of stories that really give voices to people who aren't very represented in podcasting. I think it's, it's, it's really great. And we're all going to be very shocked for a long time, about the fact that you've never hosted before; that's, that's the standard that people are gonna look up to. And it's like hmm, that's intimidating!
Aiwan
Yeah. Thank you so much. Thank you, I appreciate that. I appreciate that; it' s nice, because sometimes, you know, with podcasting you, you do feel like you are just talking into a void, you know, and so like to have it reflected back by you know, people like yourself who work in this field, and you know, the industry. I think it's really, it's encouraging, basically, because you do sometimes feel alone, you know.
Rhianna
Definitely, and I do think it is it is much lonelier, just recording in a studio by yourself or in a cupboard like you're saying.
Aiwan
Back in the closet, I came out 10 years ago.
Reem
Gonna be the name of your next podcast.
Aiwan
Yeah, back in the closet!
Rhianna
That was Aiwan Obinyan. And as I said, incredibly accomplished. And I still can't quite get over the fact that A) she didn't want to present, that she was so reluctant, but and also that it was her first time doing it. And actually, something else that I picked up on was something Reem that you kind of broached, which was about the self care that you need to have when you approach a podcast like this. And it's just something that I've never really had to consider I don't think because a lot of the kinds of podcasts that I do are very film and TV related or like this one about podcasting. So the idea of almost becoming, you know, somebody who has to absorb a lot of trauma and stories through who you're listening to. I found really fascinating. What did you think about that? Because you I think you were the one that mentioned it in the first place?
Reem
Yeah, I think, you know, we talk a lot about podcasting being an intimate medium. And I think, especially with topics like this that are so sensitive, and so personal, it's important, if you're so invested in a project, just like Aiwan was with the UK Black Pride, to kind of have that support system on the outside, that's going to be taking care of you so that you're not too lost in the podcast. And that you're you're kind of brought back to reality. But you also mentioned the fact that listening back to the interviews brings closure, and that is kind of healing. And I thought that was very nice to hear. Because I think it can be therapeutic listening to these type of stories on podcasts.
Rhianna
Yeah, that was really beautiful. And something else that I know that you were really keen on, even before we'd spoken to Aiwan was about the survey that she had been doing, which she kind of touched upon a little bit. So out of everything that Aiwan talked about what really kind of stood out for you out of the survey results?
Reem
Yeah. So we got like the exclusive survey results. And I think the most interesting thing to me was the fact that she mentioned that a lot of the things that people are missing from podcasting is more queer POC stories. And I think that's really important because she mentions as well the fact that like there's a stereotype of the LGBT community being a white gay man, and the black and brown people are a majority in the queer community. So it's important to see their stories being uplifted in the podcasting industry as much as all the other people in the LGBT community.
Matt
And did we ever get to the bottom of what a time capsule is for? Is it to be dug up? Or is it to be left in the ground?
Rhianna
It's to be left in the ground for 100 years and then dug up.
Matt
Okay. Good. Glad we got that sorted.
Rhianna
It was really funny, actually, when I was telling people after this interview about the idea of the time capsule, and obviously then everyone had their own stories about doing it at school, but but everybody went, but what if the technology doesn't exist? So it's just, you know, like, people who have buried cassette tapes over the years, mixtapes and that.
Reem
Maybe we should do a Pod Pod time capsule of all of the memories of all the tech difficulties we had in our recording journey.
Matt
Can we do it on floppy disk?
Rhianna
Nobody wants to be reminded of those. Thank you so much for listening to this episode of PodPod. You can find out more on podpod.com. Sign up to our daily email bulletins or follow us on social at podpodofficial. Do subscribe to make sure that you never miss an episode. And perhaps you could also rate us and even leave a little review in which you could give me advice for how to ask for ratings and reviews without sounding desperate. Thank you to Reem Makari and Matt Hill for their invaluable insights. And Aiwan Obinyan for the great chat. The podcast is produced by Emma Corsham for Haymarket Business Media, and I'm your host Rhianna Dhillon. See you next week. Bye.
