This is an automatically generated transcript of the PodPod episode ‘Dino Sofos: Reinventing news with The News Agents’. We apologise for any errors in spelling and grammar.
Rhianna Dillon
Hello and welcome to PodPod. Thank you so much for joining us for another podcast episode all about the Wild West. That is podcasting. My name is Rihanna Dillon and I'm delighted to bring back Matt Hill who runs a production company rethink audio, and he's the co founder of the British Podcast Awards. And Gideon Spanier, editor in chief of campaign and editorial director of pod pod who the more Eagle ears of you will remember from our interview with Deborah Meaden a few weeks ago. Hi, both how you doing
Matt Hill
Very well. Yeah, also.
Gideon Spanier
Well, thank you.
Matt
Good to be back.
Rhianna
Excellent. So, Matt, you're one of the busiest people I know. But something big is going down right now.
Matt
Yes. Busy, busy, busy. We've just had the Australian Podcast Awards, powered by I Heart Radio, through that it's all the sponsorship, which we've always build a sort of like the biggest party in Australia and podcasting, although I recently learned that Laura Byrne, who does one of the big shows over there, got married this weekend and invited pretty much all of Australian podcasting to her wedding. Oh, wow. And so I think we're the second biggest party in Australian podcasting, but I'll take it, I'll take it.
Rhianna
That's really funny, actually, that you mentioned that because when I hosted the British Podcast Awards a few years ago with Clara Amfo we were given these confetti cannons. I kept mine I didn't use it, and I saved it. And guess what I used it for my wedding. So Mike's nephews, there's a great picture of him opening this British Podcast Awards. confetti cannon
Matt
Did you say powered by Acast afterwards? That was that I think was really important that Yeah,
Rhianna
We didn't although someone did ask Mike at the wedding if he had a voice reel. So there you go. Gideon, we are going to be talking to Dino Sofos today, Matt and I interviewed this podcast producer extraordinaire. And I guess if that name rings a bell, it's because he's behind some of the biggest news podcasts, America cast, Brexit cast. And now of course, news agents. But how is he kind of got to this point, how is he such a big deal in podcasting?
Gideon
Well, I think because the idea of journalism being produced in this audio format, and something where you can really get under the skin of the story, really delve deeply is something that Dino did at the BBC. And with his production company Persephonica ago, he went to Global, the big Radio Group and brought Emily Maitlis and Jon Sopel to create this podcast and newsagents which debuted just started the autumn, just days before his trust started is Prime Minister and political podcasts were already compelling. But talk about good timing.
Rhianna I know it's kind of incredible. Actually, I guess there is such a need for immediacy with the current state of the political landscape. And they capitalised on that incredibly well. So in the interview, we kind of covered a lot about political commentary. But something that I thought was particularly memorable was our chat about AI pod pod editor, Adam Shepherd wrote a really interesting article about this last week on pod pod.com. What do you guys think, Matt? about AI in podcasting?
Matt
Yeah, I think the idea of being able to translate an interview from the native language into a different language, but using their voice. So like, synthetically, manipulating the speaker's voice, to turn it into different languages, is absolutely fascinating. I've heard a couple of demos of this practice as well, you know, it's not quite there yet as technology. And I think Dino will agree. But it is going that way. And that's what's I think, most exciting that, you know, all of these markets can open up for English language podcasts that weren't really options. Before they were, they had to be kind of working with local production companies to kind of like penetrate the market and do it in their own style. So really interesting, and I look forward to seeing how it develops.
Rhianna
Gideon, I mean, you're, as we said, editorial director of pod pod. Do you see AI becoming a big thing with us here? Are you looking to replace me with a robot? Gideon is what I'm asking.
Gideon
You're irreplaceable. And Adam did say that in his column. And I think it's super interesting, because I've seen it in all aspects of media. This is not quite AI, but I challenge people. I have children, I actually don't know the phone numbers, my kids. And what happens is when technology takes things off the thinking list, that's really, really helpful. I've used Google Translate, and it is amazingly good for sort of basic comprehension of things. And I really think that the way that AI technology can help in the short term is just speed up some things like we do the transcripts for these podcasts. For example. I as a journalist, I I get a little bit weary of what the technology can do in terms of translation and deep fakes and all that kind of thing. I think the basic principle that this is something where you can get your podcast your communication out to different audiences all around the world, that it can be actually a vehicle for inclusivity is fantastic. And you know, at Podcast Day 24, which we hosted in a number of weeks ago. I think that since that podcast travelled the world how amazing to travel because they're in different languages.
Rhianna
Absolutely. Gideon, Matt, stay there. We're gonna come back to you after hearing our chat with Dino Sofos here he is: Dino Sofo, welcome to pod pod How you doing?
Dino Sofos
I'm really well, thanks. I've just come out of party conferences and some completely knackered have been in sort of air conditioned conference centres and hotel rooms for the past two weeks, but a lot happier to be home and really glad to be joining you on the podcast. Thanks for having me.
Rhianna
Thank you. I've really been enjoying the output, though. Have you guys in conference halls? So thank you so much, it's been a lot more entertaining, actually, than it ever has been before for me.
Dino Sofos
Well, thanks very much. And we've we've certainly been spoilt for content and stuff to talk about. Because the nightmare scenario is you commit to go into these things, and you end up being there and you feel like you're in the wrong place. And actually, for the first day of the Labour Conference, we kind of thought, hang on, are we are we in the wrong place because of what was going on in the broader economy. But actually, they were both really, really interesting. The conservative conference was complete chaos. I've been going to these things for over 10 years now. And for the first time, it was basically the press office just going sort your own bids out, if you bumped into a cabinet minister in the bar, and they agreed to talk to you go for it. So we're like, okay, cool. This is the first time we've taken the newsagents on the road. And we didn't really have a fixed base. So we sort of had a road caster and a Marantz which was actually really great to be mobile, and just to be able to pitch up. And we did a grant chaps interview, just outside one of the tents, pulled up some chairs, we got a camera across it, we got them around, it's out. And it was just really nice to be flexible. So we're toying with the idea of next year if we do party conferences, which I'm sure we will, whether we actually need like a fixed space or whether we're just roving but yeah, we learned a lot from our first kind of OB as it were.
Rhianna
That's really interesting. How did that compare? Because you started out in radio, how did that compare to doing a radio OB outside broadcast,
Dino Sofos
Radio OBs are a nightmare, because just it's just a lie. It's just the live link isn't it is just you know, connecting back to base. And I remember one year in Brighton at the Grand Hotel, when I was doing an OB with Jon Pino with pinos politics Sunday morning. And it was just before the hotel was filling up. And we had, you know, one of the BBC engineers, they're one of the best in the business. Fantastic . We had the, I guess it was connecting via Comrex. And the line was brilliant, unstable. And I was sat in this sort of makeshift, like, edit suite behind the table looking at Jon, and just behind my eyesight, I could see one of the hotel staff was cleaning, and they were about to plug in the Hoover, and they plugged in the Hoover, but they unplugged the entire power powering our OB. So the wh ole thing just went off there. And it took us you know, it took us 5- 6 minutes before we could reconnect. So that was so so nice, just not to be doing like live stuff. And just like I just want I love podcasting, actually, especially daily podcasting because you get the buzz, and the energy and the adrenaline of life because effectively you're putting it out two hours later after you've recorded. But you don't have that stress of what if the line drops? What if we need to re record something? It's just great. I love podcasting.
Rhianna
Do you don't get the stress of the Edit, then.
Dino Sofos
Yeah, yeah,
Rhianna
I mean, that must be that is so wildly different from radio. Yeah,
Dino Sofos
You do have the stress of the edit. But I think we we really enjoy it. It's just it's so nice to be able to, you know, how much editing do we do, I mean is recorded pretty much like the main body of the podcast is recorded as live. But it means you can put some production in it, we can record bits of them being played the Benny Hill theme to went outside and drop it in and layer it and there's a little bit of production. It just gives you a lot more flexibility. It is stressful and having to turn an edit around, you know, finished recording at one o'clock say and trying and getting it in people's feeds by five is stressful, but we've got a fantastic team of producers who are audio whizzes and know what they're doing. And the more and more you do it, the more you get into a flow.
Rhianna
I'm glad you've mentioned Jon already because you've talked about the importance of the relationship between producer and presenter. And is that even more important in podcasting when there's You're not necessarily guaranteed that success, you need to get listeners on board, you have to build up a level of trust even more than in radio. I have not
Dino Sofos
Thought about that. You know, I think that the relationship between and did a session about this at the Radio Academy with Jon Pina last year, I think that the relationship between talent and producer is absolutely pivotal on any output. Really, there are different challenges in getting people to click on your podcast. Sure. I don't think that link is different, though. I think it's they're equally as important in different ways. I guess as a, as a podcaster. You know, when you're live radio, you're literally looking behind the glass and looking at your producer to kind of go, now what if something goes wrong, I guess you've got a little bit more of a safety net in podcasting, but still, it's the same the talent and then relying on you to do a really fantastic edit and to turn things around. And so many times we get out of a recording and the presenters are going, Oh, my God, that was rubbish. I really didn't feel that went well. And, and you have got a kind of act as the what we all do, as producers, you sort of acting as like the listener, I guess, and going, I really like that bit, that's going to work I needed to redo that bit. Let's redo that bit. But it's all working as a team. And in fact, after the last trusts episode, we recorded a discussion because you're, you're having to do sort of on the fly analysis, you just get straight out the hall, sit down and record straight away, you're expecting a lot of the talents kind of process their thoughts very, very quickly as they do in live radio. But we recorded the first discussion. And actually, we also looked at each other after we'd recorded 20 minutes and just went that just didn't feel right didn't feel very good. Let's have another go, we had a quick debrief of what we liked and what we didn't. And then Jon Sopel came out with this incredible analogy in comparison to the illustrative speech of the enemies to the people. And he said, it's, it's been ticking over in my mind, but it reminded me of Trump and he didn't do that in the first state. And the second time, and Emily was oh my god when you said that, but the hairs on the back of my neck stood up. And it was it was just like that sort of moment. And yeah, I guess if we were alive, we would have missed it the first time but because we just had a beat to think about it. And the flexibility to be able to just look at each other and go, no, let's rerecord that. Yeah, again, one of the many reasons I love podcasting.
Rhianna
I listened to that episode. And I really, I really enjoyed the analysis, actually. Thanks. I think what's so sometimes you think this news reader isn't really allowed to say what they're really thinking? Because, you know, they work for the BBC. And so but I'm sure they think, like I do, I sometimes end up projecting my thoughts onto them. And actually in this, we do get a bit behind the curtain, don't we? So tell us about the ease in which the incredible actually presenters slipped from doing the news broadcasts of podcasting and how that changed the, the way that they analyse these?
Dino Sofos
Well, I think, with Emily and Jon specifically, they'd already done a good year on America cast, which was very, very similar, actually. So Emily pivoted from auto Q to, you know, podcast studio, very well in had experience of doing that as the Jon. So that kind of conversational free flowing analysis. That's why the transition from America to the news agents was so seamless for them. But sure, the the impartiality and the freedom to be a little bit more honest, than they maybe could have been at the BBC, I think is definitely shifted. And actually, it's shifting all the time. You know, Jon has been on as a BBC journalist since the 1980s. You know, it's not something you want to disown our BBC training for all of us is hugely important, and being accurate and fair. But yeah, being able to call something out or give some analysis that may have just crossed the line at the BBC is certainly very liberating, and enables us to have a lot punchier analysis, I would say, it's like a toddler taking the stabilisers off a bike a little bit, it takes a little bit of time. And we're learning every day and we're experimenting every day. Even just the kind of language that Jon and Emily are using, I think news, custom Brexit customer requests, all those podcasts, they sounded very different to BBC output. And that was one of the joys it was like hearing, you know, Laura and catcher basically doing sex jokes on a podcast like the Europe editor in the political editor, I would never happen in any other space. And people really love that they like they liked hearing their journalists being unbuttered and ultimately, human authentic. But I think now in this space, we just, there's never that, oh, what are the male going to write up about this? Or what our boss is going to say about this? Actually, it's just we have a lot more freedom to be as human and authentic as possible, but very much keeping the accuracy and the fairness and as I've said before, in other interviews, you know, Emily, and Jon are not interested in becoming shock jocks. You know, that's not their style. It's never been their style. So it's not like they're trying to be different in a way that they're just kind of, de-BBC-ified if that's a word
Rhianna
Well, it's definitely a thing of it's not a word. When you kind of think back to even before Brexit cars, what sparked this idea of we could do this as a podcast, and we could make this successful? You know, what were those initial seeds? How did that happen?
Dino Sofos
I think changing trends in news consumption, for sure. And in 2017, when I first came up with the idea for election cast, which was the precursor to any of that format, that just came from hearing amazingly talented and knowledgeable news correspondents in the newsroom having a chat and me just going, I want to put this on air somehow. And can we do a podcast, and at that time, newspapers and political magazines started doing podcasts. And I just thought it was ridiculous that the BBC as broadcasters weren't inhabiting that space, and thought we could do a better job of it, actually, because they were broadcasters not not newspaper columnist, and the production values could be higher. And it could be more reactive. Because, you know, certainly with like my five, live training, the breaking news, we're used to getting things out quickly. And you know, the news gathering operation that the BBC has in the studios and the tech, so it was kind of a combination of all those things, but ultimately, just an intuition of the audience, people consuming us in the age of Twitter and blogs, and podcasts, of course, even though they weren't as big then as they are now that people wanted that kind of authentic, unbuttoned, conversational, warm approach to telling stories, and the fact that they want things on demand, they want it to be able to listen to content at a time that was convenient for them. And one of the things that we created with all those podcasts was we formed a habit, which is ultimately what every podcaster wants to do. And what's been amazing to see the news agents is the listening figures are huge, and they're growing. And we know when people are listening, obviously, thanks to the data, and we can see straight away that we're forming a habit. So people are, are listening and sticking with it and coming back. And we're getting tweets from listeners and emails go, Oh, I really want to hear your latest episode. When is the people going we've been refreshing our feed waiting to hear it. And it's like what we're trying to get out as quickly as possible. And I just love that we have that with Brexit cast. You know, when we did the whole, I think we pioneered and lots of people do now but this like emergency podcast thing, and the klaxon, that was a Brexit cast thing, right? And that when big news happened in Brexit land, and we would have hundreds and hundreds of tweets from listeners go emergency Brexit cast question mark, it's just lovely having that relationship with the audience who are just hungry for the content and want you to be there for them. And also creating and I think this is this is always the challenge with news and we just seen a really, really busy news week. There are periods of news, there were periods of the Brexit negotiations, which were quite dull. But actually, the numbers didn't dip hugely because people they'd form that habit. They wanted to hear the presenters having a conversation. And yeah, sure, it's a lot more interesting if the negotiations have just collapsed and people are hungry for knowledge, but they also just want to be part of that gang of presenters.
Rhianna
So their presenters personalities, I think, as you say, do Dr. So much of news agents and person moniker you set up with tamo Hara, and the papers kind of put it that you learned Emily Maitlis and Jon Sobel and Louis Goodall away from the BBC, did they actually take much Yering
Dino Sofos
Luring is a bit of a weird word. I wouldn't put it like that. I mean, I think it was just, we loved working with each other on America. So we had such a hoot. And Jon always says, you know, he was on the 10 o'clock news every night during Trump times, and was on the Today programme. The only thing that people would stop him when he was walking the dog was the podcast. I love the podcast. I'm listening to the podcast, I'm listening to you now. You know, and that was the same for all the correspondents, you know, Laura Kuenssberg and Adam and Chris Mason, they just got so much back from it. You know, and I guess, as journalists, what do journalists want, they want the room to be able to talk into and the space and the time to be able to tell everybody about what they know about right. So I think it was the format, the fact that we had such a laugh working on it, and it was creating something new. And basically, last Christmas. I think Emily, you know, well documented now she's she's done a few interviews where she's talked about it was was getting it chiefy. And I think she'd done a long stint on Newsnight and was ready for the next challenge. And again, it's not a secret that lots of people were after Emily. But ultimately, when we went for a walk, and we had a chat, and we were looking around some ideas for podcasts, and then we just suddenly thought, Well, we really enjoyed America last. Why can't we just do a more ambitious version of a news podcast and why can't I be daily in my car, that'd be the main thing we do and create a brand and have video and drive the agenda and set the agenda and do the big interviews that Emily law Mike's doing. So I think when we concocted that plan, I mean, all happened very quickly. And Jon was being lined up for the political editor job at the time. Yeah. And I think Emily just spoke to him and said, Dina, and I've just been for a walk, what do you reckon? And he said, love it, let's do it. So then then we sat down fairly quickly, last January, following that conversation with James rear at global and pitched the idea to him, and he loved it, and we will happen very, very quickly. And they had been such a supportive partner. And as a small production company, I knew that that, you know, we are doing lots of podcasts that were produced by ourselves, you know, as originals, and we'll partner with with with others, but to do a daily, you need a proper kind of news gathering operation, right? You need, you need that, you need an organisation that can that can drive it as well behind the scenes. So we knew that we needed a really ambitious partner, and we couldn't have asked for for a better partner than global. But yeah, to your point I didn't, I think the lowering is a strange word. We all wanted to work with each other again. And we've had the opportunity to do and at the end of the day, it was too good an offer to turn down. And as we all keep saying, I mean, I've been really lucky people, I'm always struck, and I always have to sort of like, just remind myself how lucky I've been. So many people go, Oh, it's amazing to just be able to launch something new, like how often do you get the chance to do that? And actually, I go, I've done it quite a lot, you know, since election. And that's kind of what I've, I've done, I've created new formats, because I just love doing it. But when you speak to other people in news, they're like, well, we've just, you know, jumped from existing format to existing format. And I think that's what's so interesting about the podcasting space now is, and the media landscape more broadly, you know, you're seeing just new opportunities for talent, and room for ideas to be implemented. I guess.
Rhianna
With your podcast formats, when you started them, it has always been at these times of quite strong political strife. So you have, you know, the myths of Brexit and mixed of what was going on in America? Do you think that those sorts of kind of huge spikes in the news are always the time to start a news podcast? Or do you think you could do it in the middle of a, you know, talking about other countries even? Could it just be in the middle of a normal political government with nothing else really going on?
Dino Sofos
Do you think that would work? Just don't know what that means? anymore? Normal? Yeah. Honestly, since since I started in news, kind of like, it all kind of for me when back to the kind of independence referendum, the Scottish independence referendum. And since then, it's just been crazy coalition, Brexit, you know, one thing or the other COVID. So I honestly, I can't answer that question. Because there's never been a period of more than, like, two months where it's felt. I mean, I remember one summer when we were like, This feels like normal now, sort of coming out of COVID. And then there was Afghanistan. And then, you know, Ukraine happened. And like, the I don't know, the challenge is that when you launch something in a busy news period, you've got to have the confidence, I think, to look ahead, and to know when, when it's peaked. And when you need to sort of nudge the audience into a different space, which is what we did with Brexit cast. When the negotiations it was clear, had kind of Brexit wasn't done, because Brexit hasn't been done, and probably never will be done. But it was clear that when there was that kind of, we'd reached the end of the kind of high jinks negotiations. And, you know, effectively, we had officially left. At that point, I just said, I think this is the time to end it, you know, and move to the next thing, and to leverage the audience in the feed. And that's when we created newscasts. And I remember getting a lot of criticism at the time ago, where the BBC doesn't care about Brexit anymore, and all that sort of stuff. It's like, Sure, we're obviously told loads about Brexit and news casts but but that was the right moment, we could have just run that format into the ground, and people would have dropped off. But it's a it's about having the confidence, I think, to think about the next thing, and then, you know, look on the horizon. And we saw the US elections and thinking right, let's do a spin this format off into America, just you can see elsewhere, like in the US with crooked media and what they've done with POD save America, which was basically built on the back of Trump. And look at what they've done now. And I look at cricket and I just think that's a great example of a production company who have, you know, jumped from one great podcast one great format and have diversified, but having they're at their core, and that's kind of what I've met our ambitions with Joseph, Annika is that we have the kind of, you know, reactive news and journalism is our bread and butter, but we want to apply what we've learned in that space to other formats. So for example, with the Dua Lipa podcast, which series to about your service has just launched. Our first interview was with Monica Lewinsky. Very cool, dude, I never wanted to just do another kind of like flaky superficial pops. Star interviews, friends, it had to have teeth and gravitas. And I think that's what we brought to the table with that, you know, there's an amazing team working at service 95 on that booking brilliant guests. But we want it to feel like an informative space. And that's just a great example of younger audiences, predominantly young female audiences, which is obviously the holy grail in any media coming to a format and learning and engaging with informative content. And I think that's what Persephonica can bring to the table in that space as well.
Rhianna
Are there any crossovers between the learnings between news agents and Julian's podcast?
Dino Sofos
Yeah, absolutely. Because what we're not doing with you know, it's a weekly show, and we are recording interviews in advance. But there are interviews that we put out pretty much days after we've recorded them, that, you know, the intros and the outros. And the interaction with the audience is all very, very reactive, because it has to be otherwise you can hear a mile off that it's just been like, bulk recorded and dumped. You know, like, for example, do a really wanted to reflect the protests in Iran. So we had emails and texts from our listeners who are in Iran, and we voiced them up. And yeah, it sounded, it sounded great. And that's a story we want to come back to on the podcast. So when you're doing a podcast that is interviewing activists and big names in the cultural space, you can't just ignore what's going on in the outside world. It has to it has to be centred and has to be aware of what's going on around it. Otherwise, you just sound irrelevant.
Rhianna
You do translate do leapers podcast into multiple languages, right?
Dino Sofos
Yeah, we did that in series. One. It was really interesting experiment, I guess. And I think what we learned from that is, we tried to do sort of UN translation in that in that podcast. So it involved it was very, it was very labour intensive, because you have to translate and then get voiced up both ends of the interview, and then mix it and produce it in a different language. So it's very labour intensive, I think, the next breakthrough for me, which which is coming and we heard some of the software that's out there is the kind of AI translation, which actually would then enable you to translate to hear the translation through in somebody else's voice. So kind of like, I don't know, what you'd call it not deep fake is it is like ai ai. So you would be able to hear Dua Lipa in Spanish rather than a voiceover artists. And I think that's when there'll be a real breakthrough in that, and I don't think we're far off, we experimented with a bit of it still sounded a bit robotic. But when that gets better, I think we will be in a place to churn out in as many languages as you want. And listeners will probably be able to decide that to be honest. But we still are. I mean, look, we've got interviewees where English isn't their first language. So we're interviewing Pedro Almodovar. And he's, he's going to do that in his mother tongue. And we're going to have a translator there. And they're going to be in separate booths. And we're gonna then have to deal with that in post, which is always fun. Interesting.
Rhianna
Is it a translator that sounds like it's his is his translator. So he will do that with his whoever he does? He obviously does a live interview.
Dino Sofos
So he has a translator he works with
Rhianna
I know one of his translators do you
Dino Sofos
might be might be, might be hurt. So yeah, so that's it. So look, we I think language and different, you know, pushing podcasts in different territories is something that I'm really interested in. And it's a global market, isn't it as we all know, and and lots more territories are discovering podcasts. And we need to make sure that they're available in the languages that they want to listen to them. And
Matt
I heard a story about how America started that there was actually maybe two or three other bits of the BBC that were developing a format, which was similar. And you decided to take the initiative in terms of getting America out there. Does that sound familiar? Is that ring true?
Dino Sofos
I remember at the time there was yeah, the BBC there are always about like 15 people working on the same thing. It's quite common. So there's like I remember at one point there was there were like for BBC climate change podcasts out produced by different parts of the organisation. I think there are a lot more organised now, thanks to the team that sounds and there's a brilliant commissioning team now. But there was a period probably around that time where it's a bit like Wild West and different teams were just commissioning content without and then it was just appearing on the same day as something else. But like that's there's the brilliance of the BBC as well. And the fact that it's so big and people are doing other bits and I think competition actually is healthy. What I do know is that a podcast appeared after America just shortly before the election, which I thought was weird. There was a World Service podcast, cutting carless was that it? I think it was called. Yeah, and that sort of appeared a few weeks before the election, and I thought that was a bit strange because it was like, there was clearly a lot of momentum behind America cast and big audience figures. So just to kind of like launch another podcast, two weeks out and election when we know Podcast Take time to build up an audience. I thought it was a bit counterproductive. But yeah, I don't I don't remember.
Matt
Well, the thing I was thinking of was, maybe this is more like a folk story than the reality. But maybe this speaks to something about the way in which you've got things done at the BBC was that, that there were a few different things about to be announced. And basically, I think you may have been at like Radio Days Europe or something. I just said that it was a thing. And then it was a thing.
Dino Sofos
Yeah. I did I Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I did. I did do that. I had a brilliant boss, though. At the time, Kamal Ahmed, who is now running a startup called the news movement, which is really, really interesting. And we're actually working with them on a on a podcast project. But Kamal was my boss at the beep. He was the editorial director of BBC News. And he's the best boss I've ever had. Because he basically saw that we were doing something we are having success. And he basically gave me a team and a pot of money. And cut my back. So yeah, I didn't go completely and just announced America, just out of the blue. Come all knew about it. But yeah, basically Radio Days Europe. Yeah, I did. I did just announce it, with agreement from Kumar. But I had the talent on board at that point. And that was the main thing. Sure,
Matt
sure. Sure. I suppose it's something interesting about like it people at the BBC who want to kind of follow in your footsteps and like trailblaze, these great new formats within the organisation and give them these brilliant new things to work on? I mean, what do you need? Do you need like a, like, someone who's got your back, as you say? Or like, like, what does it take to kind of have the kind of successes that you did it at the BBC, what kind of a person does it take to make that change happen?
Dino Sofos
Yeah, I think just needs to be a bit careful. Because in 2017, and 2019 2018 2019, it was a very different landscape at the BBC. And now it's a lot more structured. And, you know, Jonathan walls team are incredibly organised and brilliant and strategic, and they know what they're doing. So you know, I think we're in a different time now. But I guess there's something we need to have a brilliant idea, right? And you need to believe in your idea. And if you have the talent behind you, as well, that really helps. And you basically just, you need to kind of, there's a bit of not taking no for an answer and really pushing it through. To do that. Yeah, you do need a stakeholder you do need to have, you know, like one of the brilliant commissioners that the BBC behind you, whether it's, you know, Ron Roberts or Luca, and all that helps if you've got somebody behind you who's like believes in her idea or Jon Mandel going, that's great, we're gonna make this happen. We're gonna get the budget, we're going to, you know, push it forward. So I think that yeah, as I say, the BBC is a big organisation. And you know, now there are cutbacks. Right. But what's great to see is that they are, you know, prioritising audio. I think there's some, you know, we've we've been speaking to BBC studios, I think there's some really interesting things in the pipeline there about how they're going to work with Indies. And again, drive titles internationally, which I think the BBC realises they need to do. But yeah, back at the time, it was weird. And I think that's one of the things I'm proudest of in my career that we sort of rolled a pitch for things like Ukraine cast in America first. And whatever comes out now, there wasn't the news podcast team at the time. And yeah, basically, I had to like, pull a few fast ones behind the scene for the time to get it off the off the bat, because when I had the came up with the idea for election cast, I remember, there was a guy now who told me it was a terrible idea and has since come out and said, You were right, which is nice to be vindicated. But he said, No, I'm not sure about that. I don't think we need a daily election podcast. I think actually, what the BBC, what we're doing is we were talking to five live about clipping up some of their output, and one of the presenters just going to talk around, I was like, no, let's do this. Honestly, this will be this will be way better. And I'm happy to make it. It was I think I was doing another job at the time. I like convinced my boss to let me do that. I was kind of working on the social media out for BBC Westminster, and then had to convince five live not to do the other thing and to do this, and, you know, they were like, actually really incredibly supportive. But there's always that thing of like ownership and who's owning that? And I was like, no, no, no, no news are going to own it. Don't worry about it. And then I was going to five live No, no, don't worry, five loads. As I was kind of selling one set of people and things were just to get because I knew is fine. Right? It was like, we know what we're doing. We've got these big journalists and like it was just kind of, there was a whole period of time at the BBC where and only you could have only have done this at the BBC, right? Because it just has the resource where, you know, it didn't have a budget, right? Brexit has never had a budget until like it got onto BBC One. before then. It was literally me and the talent, we all just want it to make it and we just got it out there. And we yeah, we brushed up a few few incidents, there were a few moments where it's kind of like, Who's paying for the engineers that are producing it, you know, but you've got news gathered, you've got BBC news gathering, right? So that's, that just enabled it to happen. So we did kind of just get our head down, and just do it. And there were times where I came across some managers who were just like, not supportive of what I was doing, and dragged correspondents out of radio booth. Because I was wasting their time, we had those moments, but so it again, is back to that thing about if you've got an idea you believe in and you've got talent who want to do it. But just to be clear to any new producers out there, do what your boss tells you. Just have that I just have that caveat.
Matt
I mean, you were definitely a doer. You know, I've seen how much you do on news agents at the moment, and how involved you've been in all the projects you've worked on. But now you've run a company as well. Do you have an idea of how that's gonna? Because like, traditionally, you start running a company, you kind of think, well, it's not gonna change me, I'll still be creative, I'll still be on the ground. But it does happen, you know, you will end up being more management. Have you prepared yourself for that? What's the degree in which you will still have your hands sort of like on the tiller?
Dino Sofos
Sure. I mean, I've always struggled with this kind of, and I've always pushed back on it a little bit, actually, that you can't be. And that's one of the reasons actually why I left the B because you get to the point. And lots of people do this at the BBC, they get to the point where they, you know, they're spending half their days listening to stuff complaining about the BBC, when there's not much you can do about it, right. And the more you have to get involved in like, restructures, and all that stuff, it's kind of especially when you've gone through like your fifth restructure, it's a bit like, right, okay, I think I'm done now. But yeah, there was there's always there's always this tension between, as a manager, you should be doing that, and not doing output. And, and actually, at the beep in the news podcast team, as it was, when I was there, I managed to find a good balance where I was, you know, not not editing the podcast every night, because that's crazy. And you can't do that. And, you know, I, I don't do the edits on news agents. I know, there's been a few times I've jumped in, when we've got an idea or whatever. And just to kind of, we're training up a really brilliant team around it. And I've got the team at pest Avantika. And there's a team of global producers. But, yeah, you can still be creative and the CEO of a production company. And in fact, if you're not, then that's a problem. And you mentioned, Tom O'Hara, my co founder, Tom doesn't come from a creative audio background at all. He's a fund manager. So he understands business, and he understands spreadsheets, and money, which having worked at BBC for 14 years, I have no idea about that money. Budget. Wow, that's cool. Invoice. Wow. Yeah. So So you know, so I wouldn't have launched first Monica without having somebody like that, who had my back in terms of that, and we're, we're growing, we're hiring people. We're hiring creatives, we're hiring business affairs, people, post Avantika is is not a one man band. At the same time, we are being tactical and targeted. And what I'm not trying to do with this company is take a load of investment, grow hugely quickly, and then try and sell it in three years. That's not what the game is here. We want to create a world beating production company that makes very, very high quality, successful habit forming podcast formats that are really good. And we we want to be the gold standard. And I see this journey as being a long one, you know, and we want to work with the best talent in front of the mic. And behind the mic, as you guys know, is a competitive space. There's a lot of demand for audio producers. And therefore there's also a job as I see it in terms of training up the next generation of podcasters. And one of the things I want to do, when we eventually have our HQ is going to be in Sheffield, we're gonna have a base in London, but we're going to create an HQ in Sheffield. And what I want that to do and sort of speaking to stakeholders in South Yorkshire at the moment, and various organisations, we want to create a place where talent in the region can get a job in the region working on audio and become brilliant producers and not have to travel to London, or to Salford, which is actually just as hard if you're based in Sheffield or other remote bands like so, you know, can they get jobs in that region? Can they work with the biggest talent? Can they work on high profile content? So so that's kind of what I want to do. But I've got I've strayed off from your question. But yeah, I still ultimately see myself as a producer and will always see myself as a producer. And I think that you know, you need to have that skill set because you need to be able to somebody comes, you know, we're very fortunate that people are coming with us, to us with ideas and you need to kind of No straightaway, when you look at it as whether whether an idea is got potential creatively, not just on a spreadsheet,
Rhianna
it took about playing to your strengths. And one of yours clearly is social media. And you've always had a really good relationship with that you post daily on Instagram and Tiktok. And Twitter, why those channels? Why does that work so well for current affairs?
Dino Sofos
Well, you just have to look at the data. And really the latest Ofcom report showed that tick tock was the fastest growing platform for news consumption. So we knew straight away when we launched the news agents that we had to have a presence on on tick tock, you know, Twitter is obviously in terms of getting, you know, to the sort of decision makers and journalists and just awareness of what's going on. And people like news junkies, we know they're on Twitter, so yeah, so social media is really important. I think visualisation of podcasts, I'm sure this is going to be something that you talk about regularly on your podcast, the visualisation element podcast is moving very, very quickly, we're seeing, you know, YouTube are going to be adapting its platform for podcast consumption. You know, I've even heard rumours of of podcast integration on tick tock and what that looks like. So I think that having a visual presence for your podcast is really important. Will the news agents ever be fully envision, I can see a situation where it might be, you know, we were already having people going, looking at the clips and going, where can I watch the full thing, which is fascinating to see. So it's early days yet for the podcast, but you know, the studio that's been built a global, a brand new studio has full visual capabilities, the clips look great. That's very, very important for us, especially when you've got talent who are known, you know, Louis Goodall, Emily, Jon, you know, who are known for TV and they love it, they really good on camera as well, like, why would you not take advantage of that. And Lewis as well, you'll notice, has been doing explainer videos on Tiktok. And he's been doing films, which will go on global player and YouTube. And, you know, cut downs of them will will go on other platforms as well, you know, that's hugely important in terms of like, making our journalism travel. And ultimately, they're journalists as well as podcasters. And we want to connect with audiences on all platforms. And hopefully, what you've got to hope is that, you know, what, I think we did very well, at kind of news, custom Brexit cast was building huge audiences, we got some young people listening, it was definitely a lot longer younger than a lot of other BBC output. But it wasn't young enough, it wasn't diverse enough. And I think that's one of the reasons of kind of inhabiting platforms such as tick tock, you know, we need to bring in what we call sort of like news users, or people who are not news junkies, we want people who just are thinking, what the hell's going on, I want to find somewhere I can learn about the news, which feels like it's for me, you know, it's a space for me. And I think that's our ambition with the news agencies, we want to, you know, one of the ambitions of getting Lewis on board and really, you know, focusing on the video content, is to try and build a brand. And the hope is that people will watch Lewis's explainers and films on social platforms. And we'll come back to the podcast.
Rhianna
And we were just talking on another podcast about how, you know, a film podcast is being advertised in a cinema. So what other advertising models have you been using, apart from within podcasts,
Dino Sofos
obviously done a lot of traditional media. So Jon Emily had been on you know, front pages of newspapers, magazines, and give a shout out. So to cover PR, who've been who've been working on the PR for this podcast alongside global, they're amazing, you know, and they've done lots of the biggest podcasts in the UK, they've been fantastic, and they know what they're doing. So you should probably get them on at some point and talk to them about their strategy, because they're great.
Rhianna
That's a great idea.
Dino Sofos
You know, social media, obviously a big one for us. I just don't think you can be talking about your podcast and other podcasts. In fact, Alastair Campbell gave us a shout out on the rest is politics. And we've noticed loads of people, loads of his listeners have gone Oh, thanks for giving us a tip off about the news agents. So we've noticed lots of our listeners have come over to us you just can't be people who are consuming podcasts, having your podcast endorsed in other podcasts is just the best form of marketing PR, you could ask for what else have we done? I mean, clearly a global has got you know, the outdoor advertising is a huge part of its business. So that's been a that's been a big thing. And eventually it's kind of do we take the show on the road? Do we start doing live shows do we create buzz around that which obviously, as we all know, is a big part of podcasting. So I'm just really excited to see where it goes. But also like the success of it has just blown us all away. Like I'm not able, unfortunately, as much as I'd love to to share this and the figures, but is beyond our expectations of what a podcast would achieve in the first month. So we're all really happy. And the challenge now is just as you know, we'd like daily output is to sustain it is to keep growing, to keep people the habit they have formed to keep them coming back. And yeah, and hopefully it continues to grow
Rhianna
Well, thank you so much for joining us on pod pod.
Dino Sofos
Pleasure. Really nice to talk to you. And good luck with the podcast, I will be listening.
Rhianna
So that was Dino Sofos, who I'm sure you can agree, had some incredible insights into the world of news, podcasting. So Matt, for you what really stood out, I think I'm just still in awe of
Matt
what he achieved at the BBC, which is not notoriously good at innovating on quite the speed that Dino operates at. So the fact that he got so much done was fantastic, are also that podcasting has really given him the opportunity, not just in the BBC, but to leave it at a level which is competitive, you know, he can produce a show at the scale of something the BBC was doing in the commercial sector, which you know, even as long as 10 years ago would have been really, really, really hard. And I think even now, if you look at what's going on at BBC in terms of local radio cuts, you know, there are a number of shows there which are performing really well in their local areas. For example, at weekends, my local station, Hereford and Worcester. They have a kind of gardening slot on a Sunday. And I would imagine, even though that is threatened with the chop in these new cuts, will probably find a home as a BBC sounds exclusive because there was an audience locally and actually, it probably an audience more nationally, it just so happens it It started in the shires so I think there is an opportunity for podcasting to be something of a safety net for successful radio that just need to move on from it slot.
Rhianna
Obviously, I come from radio, Matt, and obviously, obviously I can I'm sorry, no, obviously, but
Matt
Yeah Radio One I know. Yeah. The backstory of it,
Rhianna
it was quite funny hearing about how Dino's kind of OB went terribly wrong. And he was, was caught short. He was pulled off air for a little bit and how actually that was so much more stressful. I love live radio, I love the adrenaline I Love You know, I think I kind of thrive off that. So but for you, because you can sort of edit podcast into any way, you know, we kind of chop up our interviews ourselves, and they might become slightly different beasts to how they began. How do you feel about that is do you think there are kind of limits to the amount that we should be editing interviews and that sort of thing?
Matt
No, I think I think it's for podcasting. And it's a different type of experience, isn't it? I think I mean, we make a lot of entertainment shows, rethink audio. And for those, we often like we'll you know, certainly some rehearse a conversation, we will have a go at it, we'll do a take well, we'll get through the whole conversation we need to do and explain the story of whatever. And then we might have another go at it. And we might find sort of efficiencies in the conversation or remember bits are add new bits and find a kind of like, sort of improvise on top of what we've done to create something which is better, rather than trying to cut it together in the edit. And of course, that is also a good thing about podcasting is that it's pre recorded, so you can have a few goes at it. I think that's really important for current affairs as well. Because if you're explaining a really complex economic or political story, or science or whatever, it may be that you as the journalist, you actually might just feel like you've just haven't done a good job at that time. You know, you just need another run at it. And of course, if it's live, that's it, you're off. And that's whatever you said, is it. So I think the idea of being able to say, Actually, can I have another run at that I think I could do it better, is just the preserve of pre recorded. Some things just work better that way. I think
Rhianna
Gideon, podcasting does make all of our lives so much easier because it's not live. Right.
Gideon
Well, I think that's a really interesting debate. So Dino was on the radio for media show with as a bolton of sky. And you may have heard that and Adam Bolton came back with a set of what I would describe as the legacy broadcast point of view, talking about living and reporting news, as it happens, not half an hour, not two hours, not four hours later, or several days. I think there are merits to both. And I know that there's some tension between some of the a few like 100% Live broadcast people and the podcast people, but actually, it's a healthy creative tension.
Rhianna
Was there anything else for you, Gideon, that really stood out?
Gideon
Well, I think what I find inspiring is the way that Dino talks about he loves creating new formats. There are lots of new opportunities for talent and room for ideas. And I do think that he's saying this about more than podcasting. It's in many areas of media technology has really lowered so many barriers to entry. It's fantastic, and he's entrepreneurial. He's taking ideas and going and going To make them and it's an inspiring story. Dino made a very good point. Thanks to Rihanna has great question about the strong producer presenter relationship. So you could say Emma does such an amazing job.
Rhianna
Thank you both so much. It's been really lovely to hear from you. And of course reflect back on our interview with Dino Sofos. Thank you so much for listening to pod pod. You can find out so much more about everything that pod pod are doing on pod pod.com So many pod pods and you can find that AI article that we've been talking about on there as well. Sign up to our daily email bulletins and follow us on social at pod pod official where you can rate and subscribe. Thank you so much to Gideon Spanier. And to Matt Hill for joining me. The podcast is wonderfully produced by Emma Corsham for Haymarket Business Media open your host Rihanna Dillon. We'll see you next week.
