This is an automatically-generated transcript of the PodPod episode ‘The Guardian: How to successfully launch a podcast’. We apologise for any errors in spelling and grammar.
Rhianna Dhillon
Hello and welcome to PodPod. I'm Rhianna Dhillon, and I'm joined this week by Adam Shepherd, editor of PodPod.
Adam Shepherd
Hello.
Rhianna
Hi. And also Reem Makari, journalist and reporter for PodPod. Welcome. Thank you so much for coming.
Reem Makari
I'm very excited to be in this intro.
Rhianna
Reem has done so much work on PodPod and is kind of always beavering away behind the scenes, if you go onto podpod.com, there are some brilliant articles about podcasting by Reem.
Reem
Thank you.
Rhianna
No, thank you. So later on, we're going to be talking to Nicole Jackson, who is head of audio at The Guardian News and Media but she also was an exec producer on Today in Focus. So the Guardian have literally just dropped a new podcast, a pop culture podcast, which obviously with my background as film and TV critic, I'm very interested in. It's called Pop Culture with Chante. And the first episode is all about Rihanna's new music. So I was in from the beginning. We're gonna be digging into actually a lot in the world of The Guardian podcasting. But before we get to Nicole, there is another podcast that has just dropped, which is the Black Panther podcast from the Marvel Universe.
Adam
Indeed. And this is largely why the first episode of the Guardian's podcast focused on Rihanna, because Rihanna has in fact, just dropped new music for the first time in who knows how long as part of the Black Panther soundtrack.
Rhianna
Yes, Lift Me Up. So this comes with the kind of the closing credits of Black Panther Wakanda Forever. It's going to have you in tears if you've not seen it yet. And so the podcast is hosted by Ta-Nehisi Coates, who says kind of very up top that he is a friend of director Ryan Coogler. And he knew Chadwick Boseman very well. So I had like a couple of thoughts about that, because it's a really, I think it's such a beautiful first episode, actually, because it is just talking to Ryan Coogler about Chadwick Boseman's death, the impact that he's had on Black Panther as a whole. But where do you guys stand on Marvel are putting out a podcast, which is obviously primarily to promote Wakanda Forever. And the host is a very, very, very dear friend of the director and the cast. Is this something that you think is possibly a little bit murky? Or do you think this is okay?
Reem
I think it's great. I think it's because because podcasting is such an intimate experience, and people feel very connected with the host, to have someone who is so connected to the films and can really bring something genuine to the podcast is something really great and you were just saying that you listened to the first episode and teared up listening to it.
Rhianna
Yeah, I cried watching and listening to the first episode.
Reem
I haven't listened to it yet, but I'm pretty sure I'll be crying as well. And I'm sure so many Black Panther fans are going to be in tears listening to this podcast.
Adam
I think it's is the only choice really, Coates the only person who could have fronted this podcast. In addition to being a journalist, a writer, an activist, he's also written a chunk of Marvel's Black Panther comics in recent years, I think 2016, I want to say, and because Black Panther as a film, the first one was so impactful, and such a cultural moment. I think the fact that Marvel is picking Wakanda Forever as its first tie in podcast is really significant. And I think a really a really good choice. What will be interesting, I think, is whether or not they follow this up in subsequent releases that are maybe less kind of significant, for want of a better word.
Rhianna
And emotional.
Adam
Yeah, absolutely. Whether it just becomes a staple part of their sort of hype cycle, or whether this is just because it's such a significant release, especially with the passing of Chadwick Boseman, in between one and two.
Reem
I found it really Interesting that this is the first podcast from MArvel as part of the MCU. Because you think with how much fans they have, for the entire Marvel Cinematic Universe, that is something they might have considered earlier.
Rhianna
I was wondering about this because it feels like a weirdly quite dated thing to suddenly be putting out your first podcast, when you are such a huge... I mean, what do you even call Marvel? Yeah, conglomerate everything, they kind of cover everything.
Reem
Cult?
Rhianna
Which are paid up member of; I know you're a huge Marvel fan. But I guess it makes me think about BBC Sounds, for example, they've got quite a lot of podcasts where they will specifically hone in on a show. And it will be very much from a BBC perspective. So they have to get fans of the show. It has to have interviews with with the cast and crew, there is something editorial about that.
Reem
It's like a trend.
Rhianna
Yeah, it is. But also is there a line, as consumers of podcasts, is it just kind of paying lip service to a show? Or are we more interested in something that's more balanced? Does it matter if we're if we're listening to it? It's because we're a fan. So I'm not I'm just asking questions.
Adam
What I think is a really good sign from that perspective is that they've got Coates fronting it, because Coates does, he has a deep connection to the film and the source material. But he's also got credibility, kind of as an actual journalist and writer in a bunch of different areas. If it was being fronted by just a celebrity presenter, or like reality TV star or like celebrity fan of the property. I feel like that would come across much more as just over sort of advertising in a way that this doesn't really seem seem to be.
Rhianna
Yeah, I do think it's an incredibly smart move on Marvel's part.
Adam
Yeah. And I think if you continue that trend, across the board, because Reem, as you pointed out, this is not this is part of a new trend of tie-in podcasts for properties and organisations on this kind of scale. So House of the Dragon recently had their tie-in podcast, and Callisto Protocol, which is an upcoming spiritual successor to Deadspace, which I'm very much looking forward to
Rhianna
I don't know anything of what you just said.
Adam
Video games.
Rhianna
Right. That's why.
Adam
But that's getting a tie-in prequel podcast, which is like a narrative horror thing, which is a really interesting concept. But again, part of this kind of trend towards tie-in podcasts.
Reem
I feel like it's a very smart marketing move that a lot of those brands and companies are doing just because, you know, when you when you have shows and movies, usually when you're a fan of it, you go on YouTube, and you go and you watch the interviews with the cast members, or you read articles about it, and in depth features. So having podcasts something that's directly from the company offering insight that you're not finding in the movies, for example, the Black Panther podcast, it's people talking about the stories of when they've worked on it and stuff that you haven't heard before. I think it's very smart. And I'm, I think, for fans, it's something that they're really enjoying as well.
Rhianna
It does feel like a really, having listened to it, a really safe space for Ryan Coogler to talk about a really difficult traumatic time. And for his friend to be asking him the questions. But the best thing about this particular podcast was the space that the kind of silence where we heard him, take a moment, collect himself, have a little cry. And that just feels like the most human normal, genuine reaction. And I just feel like if he's on a, you know, conveyor belt of interviews, and if it was me coming and asking him that question for this podcast, you know, you'd get such a different response. It wouldn't nearly be so kind of genuine.
Adam
Absolutely.
Rhianna
Yeah. It's a really special one. So yes, the Guardian's new podcast delves into the link between Rihanna's new music, between Black Panther. And it's really interesting to hear from Nicole Jackson, all about how the Guardian approaches their new podcasts in terms of the launch, in terms of the preparation, in terms of listener growth. So we do try and get as involved as possible in all of those nuggets. So here's me and Adam, talking to Nicole Jackson, all about the Guardian podcasts. Nicole Jackson, welcome to PodPod. Thank you so much for joining us.
Nicole Jackson
Thank you very much for having me. I'm genuinely honoured to be here.
Rhianna
It's such an exciting time for you because you have just launched a brand new podcast with The Guardian called Pop Culture with Chante, which I've had a listen to. The first episode is all about Rihanna's new music. So obviously I was already in; my namesake. So yeah, tell us a little bit about where the the kind of idea for this comes from, how long this particular one has been in the works.
Nicole
It's been like quite a few months in the works. And that is because we really wanted to do it properly. You know, I felt first of all, there was like an obvious gap in the market both I think within the sort of Guardian range of podcasts for something pop culture focused. And to be honest, I kind of think in the wider market, I don't feel like there's a tonne out there that is kind of doing smart, like witty analysis of pop culture. So that was our starting point. And obviously, then the first thing we needed to do was find a great host. And so we did a lot of piloting internally and externally. And actually, it was incredibly helpful, because there were loads of people who were brilliant, and we're gonna get them back as guests. But writer and journalist Chante just really stood out, I have to say, just like she had the thing, you know, when you're just hearing, you're like, ah, there it is. And she really takes pop culture seriously. And that is what we wanted to do with this show. We didn't want it to just be a lightweight run through, we wanted it to be entertaining and full of laughs. But you also wanted to take the subject seriously. And she really does that. And also, she's just like an absolute pleasure to work with works incredibly hard. And I just want to give a shout out to the rest of the team as well, because obviously, as everyone listening to this podcast knows, podcasts are made by a team of people. And so we have a brilliant exec producer, Maz Ebtehaj, and a great producer Hattie Moir and the music by Axel Kacoutie, who I think you guys are familiar with. And sound design by Mao le Seto. So it's been a really amazing team. And yeah, episode one launched on Thursday, as you say it was about Rihanna. I think we're looking at The Crown next week, or we're looking at The Crown soon. I know, I'm very excited.
Rhianna
That's going to be incredible. Okay, so you really are bouncing all over the place. Those are two, you know, completely different ends of the spectrum kind of entertainment. There is so much I kind of want to unpack from your first answer. Let's start with pilots. Because you obviously at The Guardian, you do have access to so many potential up and coming new emerging talent, but also, you have so many people already that you know, are incredible podcasters. So in terms of who you pilot, where did you kind of start looking, what were you looking for? And what kind of things did you include in your pilot as well?
Nicole
Yeah, I mean, I just I have to say, I mean, maybe it's a really obvious point to make. But I just think piloting is so important. I cannot imagine ever putting out a show that hasn't had a really kind of rigorous piloting period, we were looking for people who were interested and knowledgeable about pop culture and internet culture, we were interested in people who would be able to give us enough time. So there were lots of brilliant journalists at The Guardian, who I think could have done like an hour a week. And we're really lucky. We have two days a week with Chante. And so she has like, really involved Yeah, from the beginning to the end. She doesn't just sort of turn up and read the script. Like she's in the planning. She's thinking about the guests booking, she's writing all the questions. What else we're looking for, obviously, people who have a kind of natural conversational tone. And I think that sort of applies to be honest, to like lots of our podcasts, I really, yeah, I really want people to feel like they're eavesdropping on their smart friend explaining something. And you know, I always think that's one of the massive advantages, isn't it a podcast versus say radio, like you don't have to comply with certain rules, like we can make up the rules to a certain extent. And I also, I think, because audiences skew younger and we were definitely in podcast listening, and we were definitely trying to look for a younger audience with this podcast, we were thinking about the kind of tone that people would respond to. I will just say that I always think it's a mistake to try and make stuff specifically for, quote unquote, young people, because I think you can end up feeling inauthentic and I think anyone can smell that a mile off. The other thing we thought about a lot as well, is tone and structure. So, you know, we tried out various things, is it going to be a magazine format? Should we try like three stories a week? Should we have like a roundtable discussion? You know, should we do a quick fire like q&a at the beginning on five other stories that are doing the rounds? So we tried out lots of different ways of doing this show, as well as lots of different people doing it.
Rhianna
What structure did you end up settling on?
Nicole
So we've ended up doing one story a week, and you know, that might be with one guest, or it might be with multiple guests, and we're trying to kind of answer a question at the top of it. And, you know, I guess, without sounding like too naff, have a like, sense of a kind of narrative across the episodes, you know, it's sort of, you know, we're trying to take you somewhere, basically. And yeah, we structure it quite carefully, isn't just sort of freewheeling we definitely, like go into the records, having a sense of what we're trying to get out of the interviews. Having said that, I think Chante really likes to be able to feel like she can like free range within the interview. So it's like, you know, we we know, we need to say hit points A, B, and C. But if someone raises something really interesting, like, she'll go down that path and follow it with them. It's not like a rigid, right, 10 minutes, and you can only answer these questions type style.
Adam
Yeah. So I just want to pick up on the point you mentioned earlier, you mentioned that you'd played around with a lot of different formats, and that you wouldn't dream of launching a show without a pilot. How many pilots did you do for pop culture? And how many pilots do you generally end up doing before you launcha ny new show?
Nicole
I think I mean, obviously, there was like, the whole piloting period with lots of different hosts. And so gosh, I don't know, I want to say maybe, like, between 10 and 20. And then once we'd like decided on Chante, I think we did about, and I say we really this was like Maz and her team. I think they did about eight pilots. I mean, I think Chante was like, No, I think she was so over it. I saw, I saw that when she tweeted announcing that she was going to be the host, she was like, after a long piloting period. And you know, I guess like Grace Dent, Comfort Eating. That's another one we did four pilots with that. And I think with that, we had a much clearer idea. You know, at the beginning of the piloting of what the show was, it was a sort of, you know, your life through comfort food. But even then, you know, things like realising how much information we needed to let the listener know, before you get into the interview, you know, the food being a surprise, so that Grace genuinely didn't know what was coming, thinking about the tone that we really wanted to keep it kind of fun and entertaining, and sort of like, make it a kind of lighter listen for the week. All of that sort of came out during the piloting period. And you know, Today in Focus, I think we piloted for about four, three or four months. I mean, I cannot I just can't even think how many pilots we must have made for that show. Thank god no one's ever gonna hear those.
Rhianna
Grace Dent's podcast. It was interesting. So heard recently, the Malorie Blackman one, which I really loved. But it's interesting the format that takes because yes, it's about comfort eating but she also goes through Malorie Blackman's life, she goes through her guests lives, right. Yeah, from from birth, essentially, up until the present day. Do you see the podcast that you do as always having these multiple strands because yes, it's about food and about comfort eating, but it's also about the great loves of her life. It's about her parents. It's about her life experience. So do you always have that in mind when you start a podcast about how many different ways it can actually go within one?
Nicole
I think that we definitely always think about the sort of other layers that we can add into podcasts. Food is interesting. But we've definitely always thought it needs to be a vehicle for something bigger. And I think Leia Green, who was the series producer on the first couple of seasons, and again, she and Grace like really drove the kind of vision of that show. I think they both thought comfort eating was such a good vehicle because often food shows food podcast focus on kind of higher end food or like, you know, amazing meals and kind of fancy restaurants. And their thought was, what is that food that you eat at the fridge when no one's looking late at night, and that in itself is really revealing. I think also it gives us sort of intimacy, having that kind of conversation. And then that also lends itself really well to kind of more personal conversations.
Adam
So on that subject, then the Guardian obviously has a huge history as a newspaper publisher.
Nicole
Yes.
Adam
It's also been involved in podcasting for a long time. What do you feel that podasting as a format allows you to do kind of as, as journalists and as publishers that print publishing or even digital publishing maybe doesn't in the same way?
Nicole
Yeah, I mean, gosh, I think it lets you do so much. I don't know if everyone knows, by the way, do you know the Guardian, like coined the term podcast?
Adam
Yes, I was gonna bring this up, this is a fabulous nugget. That was in 2004, I want to say, Ben Hammersley?
Rhianna
I remember hearing this on a podcast actually.
Nicole
God, this is gone so insular, I know, I feel like such a nerd. I don't know if you know this. I suppose the reason I brought that up is I think that, as you've said, like the Guardian's got a long history of working with audio. And I think that that has really helped us now. Because we've really been able to, like build on the success of some early shows. And when I think about why it works for us, for The Guardian, I basically think it's like a completely different way of consuming news. So there's this thing that we talk about, it's like the ears being entertained when like the eyes and hands are busy. So we can access people at completely different times to when you know, they might be looking online or reading the paper. And I also think for the journalists and writers who work with us, particularly on Today in Focus, it's just a completely different way of telling your stories, A, you the reporter become part of the story now that definitely I think, for some of the reporters took a kind of while to get used to because they obviously are instinctively used to taking themselves out of the story. But also it means a person that you spoke to for so 10 minutes, and was a brilliant interview, but you can only like use three lines of them in your copy, suddenly, they become a real person or character in one of the episodes. And you're able to sort of tell their story in a completely different way, I think bring their stories to life, we've really found that it's had huge impact, the journalists have found, they've said often that you know they can, a story will go up on the website or out in the paper, and you know, it might get some attention, and then it will go out as a podcast. And they just get so much feedback. And that I think really sort of tells you about the kind of power of podcasts to reach people.
Rhianna
And of course, part of that is the way that you launch these podcasts. Right. And we are just coming off the back of you having launched a very recent one. So can you talk a little bit about what is involved in a podcast launch? From your perspective? What is the apart from obviously reaching as many people as possible? What are your actual aims with that?
Nicole
Yeah, I think that's such a good question as well, because like, obviously, sometimes it's just numbers, isn't it? It's like you really want to launch something and get like huge listener numbers. But I think other times, it's also thinking about impact, is this a subject area that's being underserved? Or is it reaching an audience who are being underserved. And so I sort of think about that in terms of like success metrics. And then in terms of like what we do to launch, obviously, aside from all of the piloting, there is a brilliant press and marketing team. And they work really hard with us. And they help us think about, like, the sort of journey if you like to getting this show out. And, you know, that means making sure that we've got good relationships with all the podcast platforms like Apple and Spotify, you know, we work with Acast who are absolutely brilliant. And, you know, thinking about trailers and getting them out early, so we can build up a buzz thinking about what the campaign is going to be like. So I think a really good example of that is the Grace Dent Comfort Eating campaign. So Leia and Grace had come up with this really brilliant artwork. I don't know if you have seen it, but it's Grace, basically reclining in a bath of chips.
Rhianna
I have certainly seen it, yes.
Nicole
They were real chips.
Rhianna
No!
Nicole
Yeah, it was, oh, it just sounded absolutely brilliant for about 15 seconds, and then completely horrendous for about three and a half hours. And she just said, obviously, the chips just got cold immediately. And then she was just sort of lying in a vat of fat basically. And she really needed to go go to the loo, I think within about half an hour and obviously couldn't get out there. I'm sure she wouldn't appreciate me sharing that.
Adam
Oh, poor Grace.
Nicole
But totally worth it because the artwork is brilliant. And I think, you know, they thought about that. Yeah. But it's like eye catching, right? Because that is something you have to think about on that carousel. When you're like scrolling through and you guys know this, like there is so much out there now like what is the thing that might get you to stop. They also think about can they use kind of The Guardian, obviously to help launch this and I think we're really lucky. It's a massive, massive platform. And that's obviously allowed us to really lead in podcasting output because we have this sort of huge machine of The Guardian behind us. So Grace wrote an article. She went on some shows to talk about our podcast, we obviously had like adverts on the website and in the magazine. And obviously social is absolutely massive for us in terms of thinking about how we promote things. So yeah, there's a huge kind of team who are working with us to help get these shows out there and to help them reach the right people.
Adam
So on the subject of the Guardian's enormous platform that looking beyond the launch phase, yeah, how do you leverage the Guardian's platform and the other tools at your disposal for audience acquisition and kind of listener growth over the long term? What's the kind of strategy behind that?
Nicole
Well, first of all, I think we definitely think about like quality over quantity. So as I said, we're not just like chasing the numbers for the sake of it. And so that doesn't mean just like saying to ourselves, right, we have to do eight shows this year. It's like really thinking about A, what we already have. And can we build on that? And can we make it better? And how can we tweak it? Sometimes it means getting rid of things that aren't doing very well. So the year before last, we asked a couple of shows, because they just weren't really kind of doing particularly well, we just felt like, you know, it wasn't a good use of resource. And that resource could be kind of diverted onto other existing shows, or onto new shows.
Adam
So just quickly, ballpark figure, how many podcasts does the Guardian have at any kind of one time that are actively in production?
Nicole
So we've got Today in Focus, we've got Politics Weekly UK and Politics Weekly US. We've got Science Weekly, we've got two football shows. So Football Weekly, and then the Women's Football Weekly, got Audio Long Read and Weekend podcast we've got Comfort Eating with Grace Dent, which I just mentioned, and we've got Pop Culture with Chante Joseph. And now we've just put out Can I Tell You A Secret? So I guess at the moment, I've got 10 weekly shows on the go, or nine weekly shows, one daily show and then yeah, another narrative series in production.
Rhianna
So with Can I Tell You A Secret, which as you say, is is a pretty kind of recent thing from The Guardian. This is what the first kind of foray into true crime really that the Guardian has done. Obviously, it's an incredibly popular genre. It's something that as many people are trying to tap into as possible in what ever format that is, but I guess the big criticism about true crime is that it can often be salacious, and it can often be from the wrong perspective, or it's made to excite when actually, the stuff that they're talking about is incredibly nasty. So tell us about why you chose this particular subject, how you approach true crime as a newspaper, kind of behind you where you are, you're always supposed to give balanced views.
Nicole
It's such a good point you make because I even find the sort of word true crime a bit icky now probably because I kind of associate it with like certain sort of things, dead lady basically. And as you said, it can feel exploitative. So basically, we set out to make a standalone narrative we definitely weren't looking for like a true crime narrative. But Sirin Kale, who is the host and reporter on the series, was working on this story about this guy, Matthew Hardy, he was a cyber stalker and he'd spent a decade terrorizing women online across the country. It just obviously, you could feel it was, it could be a great podcast series, it had sort of all of these different elements, you know, the women the length of time that he'd been doing it, and kind of the number of women that have been impacted by him, and she had gotten in touch with them. So she had these really strong relationships with all these women. And when we were talking about doing it, we obviously wanted to front and centre their stories. But we were also really interested in understanding, like why Matthew Hardy would have behaved this way. Because I sort of feel like you don't really get the story any further, if you're not also looking at that. And it's really difficult, right? Because you're not trying to create an empathetic picture of this guy who undoubtedly did terrible things. But I think if you don't understand why he did it, then there's no chance of sort of trying to kind of put an end to it. Not that I'm saying we would have been able to put an end to his stalking, but I just mean in general. And so we also said to ourselves, right, we have to tell all these women's stories, and we also have to try and tell his story and try and understand like, what kind of was going on in his life that prompted him to behave this way. And I guess the other thing that I thought about was Sirin, and I knew what an amazing journalist she is, and also what a brilliant writer and I always think writing is sort of so under talked about in podcasting, but it's so important, right, it's like the script is the thing, often that sort of keeps us engaged. And so I basically thought if we can kind of get enough access to people who might give us a bit of insight into Matthew, and I knew that the women were willing to talk to Sirin, because she's had this good relationship with him. I just thought that, you know, has all the potential. Yeah, and I mean, we're very, very grateful at what a success it's been. And I think, you know, went to number one in the podcast charts here in the UK, and in Australia, which is amazing. And that's also I think, partly because we sort of put the episode on different feeds, which I'll talk about because I think that's another thing you were asking before about kind of how we utilise the sort of Guardian platform, I think being able to kind of put episodes in some of the other podcasts really helped drive an audience. Like discoverability is so difficult, right? But we put episode one in Today in Focus, the Australia kind of sister podcast, Full Story, and then Audio Long reads and Weekend, and just episode one. And then we said, you know, if you want to listen to the rest of this, go and subscribe to Can I Tell You A Secret. And I think that had a kind of big impact on basically building numbers. But I think the other thing that we were really pleased about is that people really responded to the kind of nuanced story that we had tried to tell, to try and understand kind of how Matthew's experiences when he was at school might have impacted the way he behaved around people. He is autistic, and he has learning disabilities. And they also I think, played into like, how he perceived the world and how he felt the world perceived him. You know, we were interested in looking at kind of like resource and where there was a lack of resource. So and I think, you know, I was glad that people sort of saw that we were trying to kind of tell a story in its kind of full sense, and not just a kind of thriller, basically,
Rhianna
You mentioned earlier, Axel Kacoutie, who we have had on the podcast, and he is across so many podcasts, actually, his music, he's an incredible artist. So how much does the sound design and all of those kind of extra bits that perhaps smaller podcast or independent podcast might not be able to afford? Or be able to do? How much do you think that gives you an edge?
Nicole
Yeah. Do you know what that's such a good question, because I think it's absolutely huge. And so I still feel bad saying that for kind of people who are listening to us and don't have massive resource, but I do think it's really important. You know, Axel joined us, he was one of the first people on the Today in Focus team and I really think like his craft, his sound design, and his scoring is what really kind of lifted that from being a sort of news show into something, you know, we try and make a kind of mini documentary each day and I think his work on that really kind of transformed that show and I absolutely think he did the same with Can I Tell You A Secret. I mean, he just, as you've said, is so incredibly creative. And he just thinks about things with such kind of depth. He's never just like whacking on a kind of bit of library music. You know, I made a mini series with him. and Oliver Lachlan, who's the US southern bureau chief at the beginning of the year called The Division. And it was about a civil rights division that had been set up in New Orleans. And the case of this one man in particular Kuantay Reeder who had been in prison for 28 years, and he was saying he hadn't committed the crime. And I would like to urge you to go and read Axel's thread on his sound design. Because even though I had numerous conversations with him about it, when we were working together, even I had not appreciated like how the levels that he had thought about when he was thinking about the kind of music and sound design. So that thread is really worth the read.
And we will link to that in the show notes for this episode. One thing I'm curious about, you touched on it briefly earlier, Rhianna, obviously, you are a very experienced broadcast journalist and radio journalist, I as listeners will probably be able to tell am not, so...
Rhianna
Don't be so hard on yourself, Adam.
Nicole
Yeah, don't say that. You're doing brilliantly.
Adam
Oh, stop it. What I am curious about, though, is what the capacity and indeed the appetite is at the Guardian for taking traditionally written journalists and long form journalists and essentially upskilling them to be podcasters and giving them some of that broadcast skillset.
Rhianna
That's such a good question. Yeah.
Nicole
Yeah, it's such a good question. And I think lots of things about this, I think, number one, we're like, so lucky at the Guardian to have like, a really, really good journalists who have like, just adapted to work in multimedia really quickly, and they're so willing to sort of put loads of time into it. I think several things. I think one sometimes like broadcast journalists can come with a slight broadcast quality. And so there can be a real advantage, I think of working with people who, if you can sort of help them sound conversational, and sort of usually, that just means relaxing them right, and making them feel that they're sort of well prepared in advance. I feel like they don't switch into broadcast mode. And so I feel like you hear a more natural conversation. And I also think, you know, it's not video, usually there's not a camera, you're not having to worry about kind of how you look. And I think after a while, people do just tend to sort of like, forget that they're being recorded. I think you know, that we're really lucky that all the hosts in The Guardian work really well with the journalists. And that is because the audio team are incredibly nice. And I know that sounds really banal. But I that is just such an important...
Rhianna
You can't overlooked the importance of niceness.
Nicole
I really, I like I genuinely just think like being nice to work with is huge. And I don't understand why it isn't kind of front and centre of what everyone thinks about when they're hiring.
Adam
Well, especially in an audio medium, where the mood you're in, and the way you're feeling is inevitably going to come across so much in your voice and your delivery. Having a nice team around you is so so important.
Nicole
Yeah. And I hope that, you know, the journalists in The Guardian. And it's not just like the journalists in the kind of newsroom here. But you know, obviously, we're a global news organisation. So we've got journalists all over the world, I think they really liked working with the audio team. And you know, the other thing I would say is like, you guys must feel this, too, it's become easier and easier to make audio, right? It's like now when a journalist is going, and they say, I'm travelling out to here, and I'm thinking about doing this, do you want some audio? You don't even have to give them a Zoom and a mic, you can just say, Great, can you please just record some of this on your phone. And then you know, when they come back, we can do an interview with them and use that kind of audio underneath. So in a way, you're not asking them always to like add on a huge extra workload to what they're already doing. You know, they often record their interviews anyway. And so I think like fitting audio into their sort of workflow has sort of helped us as well, as I said before, I think impact has really helped as well. So I think if there was any sort of sense of not scepticism, but reluctance, I think seeing the kind of impact that the shows have had really helped encourage people to come and do audio. And I don't mean just impact as well for them, I mean, for the people that they're writing about. So an example is machine did a cost of living interview a few months ago, with this woman who was having a really difficult time, and she had a young son. And it was a really brilliant interview, and just went really in depth in a way that I think quite often you don't get on kind of news segments. And afterwards, hundreds of readers got in touch, and they wanted to give her money. And she didn't want that. So instead, they bought her knitting patterns, which she had talked about in the interview. And I think she now has a book deal. And I just feel like it's such a good example of like, how listeners engage with the stories. And I think the journalists really recognise that so no, I think it's been absolutely brilliant. Basically having print journalists work with us. And yeah, I'm really hoping we can long continue to do it with them.
Rhianna
You know, I really appreciate you talking about the times when perhaps the podcasts have not been so successful. But I kind of want to drill down into the the podcast launches, again, in terms of the ones that haven't necessarily been a success. How do you gauge if a podcast launch has not been so successful? And how do you sort of keep that going, you know, keep kind of pushing it, even after an unsuccessful launch to make sure that you might still get some growth, because I think for a lot of listeners, they might have these brilliant ideas, they try and get it out there, they might try and launch it, and it doesn't necessarily hit the target. So and obviously, I know you're talking on a much bigger scale. But...
Nicole
Yeah, I've been really lucky since I took over the department that I have, like, I've been really careful with what we launched. And so far, touch wood, everything has kind of been successful.
Adam
All killer, no filler.
Nicole
But I'm just thinking about like how, yeah, I suppose what I would say to people who are thinking about making shows like what are you offering? That is different to what is already out there? Like, what is the edge that you have? Is it access? Is it the talent producing or hosting the show? You know, how much resource do you have? Because yeah, I think there's a lot of content out there. And it's almost become like a kind of joke, right? Like, oh I'll just make a podcast about that.
Rhianna
I guess, for people who don't necessarily have have a big kind of platform or brand. Do you have any advice for making a podcast as visible as possible?
Nicole
I think if you're going to do a quality show, and especially if you're gonna do a daily show, I think you have to really commit to resourcing it properly. And I think that was the thing that I really admired the Guardian, when they decided to do what became Today in Focus that they basically went all in. So they decided they were going to do this daily news show, and then they really put a proper budget behind us. And it meant that we could hire Anushka Asthana, who was was a brilliant first host of the show. And I think it was five producers at the time, you know, Axel to sound design, Phil and I to exec it, you know, it was not done on a kind of shoestring budget, but I think that really paid off. And so I guess it's about thinking, if you don't have a big budget, what can you do for your money? And maybe don't try and be too ambitious and end up with a less good product, but because you've tried to over stretch yourself? Like if you don't have lots of money for like sound design, then how can you make it sound kind of really rich?
Adam
I feel like a lot of people and a lot of organisations particularly feel like podcasting is easy, or assume podcasting is easy before they get into it, you know, so we just, you know, stick some of our people in front of microphones and just have them talk for an hour.
Nicole
Yeah, totally.
Adam
There's a lot more that goes into it in terms of things like sound design, and scripting and branding, even before you get to the editing and kind of marketing side of things.
Nicole
Though it is I do think it's really worth, like having your own projects. Like I know that one of the producers I hired for Today in Focus when we were adding to the team. There were loads of applications. So it's insanely talented people. And he had made his own podcast at home. And it was a music podcast. And it was, it was lovely. But also it was it just I thought it like showed this sound like I'm being patronising, but it just showed real initiative, I was like, so impressed that it managed to put this thing together, like literally from his bedroom. And so I think also, I guess, think about like the intention of the podcasts, do you definitely need to try and get it out kind of onto sort of iTunes or actually could you use it to then try and kind of get work elsewhere.
Adam
So media is in a bit of a kind of state of flux at the moment, I mean, arguably has been for the last ever, but particularly it feels like in the last couple of years podcasting and video is playing a much bigger role for established media organisations and publishers like the Guardian. What do you see as the role of podcasting in the future of the overall kind of media industry and kind of journalism as a whole?
Nicole
So I can obviously only really talk about the Guardian, but I imagine that like it will become a staple part of many media organisations, you know, if the Guardian's anything to go by, it's a really fast growing part of our organisation. I don't think now anyone would think about it not sort of being one of the key ways that we try and get our journalism out to people. Also we think about the kinds of things that we can now do around podcasts. So, you know, for example, sometimes, like videoing some of the interviews and clipping them up for social, which I know lots of other people are doing is a kind of really good way of reaching people. But we're also now doing live shows, we did a live show with Comfort Eating a few months ago, which was absolutely brilliant. And actually, we ended up putting it as a bonus episode in the feed because it was so funny. You know, Football Weekly did it's first live tour of the UK and Ireland a few months ago too, that was amazing. And also like a way of us connecting with the listeners, which felt gratifying thing for Max and Barry and Till the producer to actually be able to kind of meet in real life, all of these people who support the show every week. And we think about IP as well, you know, that now when we're making things? Like, can they have another life as TV series or a film? You know, The Division and Can I Tell You A Secret have had the rights bought to them. So I feel like podcasts are also like a stepping stone, aren't they in like the way of telling these stories.
Rhianna
And are there any other podcasts that aren't from The Guardian that you've looked at? And you've kind of seen succeed or do things really well, that you've admired? And that you kind of think, oh, maybe we should think about doing that in the future?
Nicole
Yes, I almost feel bad saying this. But I know he was on your show the other way. I love The Rest Is Politics. I think it's a great show. You know, I think they're both, I think, you know, in a way, it's such a simple show. And that is why but it basically works off I think their the inside knowledge that they bring and the chemistry that they have between them. And I also think they've been really smart and not confining it to UK politics, I really enjoy the fact that they do global politics. And you know, that's something that I thought a lot about when we launched Today in Focus, you know, The Daily was like, absolutely killing it, you know, the New York Times daily news show, but it was very kind of America focused. Understandably, America is a huge country. And I thought, well, you know, what, we have this like global network of incredible correspondents, we really, really kind of think hard about our global coverage at The Guardian. And that is something that we should really kind of make sure that we sort of front and centre in Today in Focus. So we have a big global audience, which I think is great. And I think that also really helps with growth, right? We haven't confined our audiences on the whole to just UK audiences. I mean, there are loads of other shows that I like, I listened to a lot, you know, I'm always interested in what Tortoise are doing. I think it's really interesting their pivot to audio. I'm listening to Pig Iron at the moment, which I'm enjoying a lot.
Rhianna
I haven't started that yet. I'm saving it.
Adam
It's on the list.
Nicole
It's very easy, isn't it to like, look around at your competitors. And to kind of get I think, you can sort of end up being too consumed with what everyone else is doing?
Adam
Pod envy.
Nicole
Yeah, I think the most important thing I genuinely do is for me to think like, what can the Guardian do well, like, what yeah, what resource can we use? And what stories are we, like, how are we the right people to tell certain stories, and not worry too much about what everyone else is doing? And also, I think competition is really good. You know, I think it A, kind of probably makes all of us up our game a bit. But also people don't only confine themselves to one brand, one show.
Rhianna
And that in that case, I suppose it's very different from the actual physical newspaper, right? Because people might only ever buy The Guardian their entire lives. But that doesn't mean that they won't then stray outside of that, and vice versa. And I do think that is so huge.
Nicole
Yeah, no, definitely. And I think that's huge for us as well that like we definitely reach an audience, podcast can be the gateway to the Guardian. For some, in fact, I know it is for some of our listeners, like we are the first thing that they go to, and then they might like follow up online. And I think that's really interesting. Yeah, and I, you know, I thought that particularly whenever we work with investigations, and they have amazing stories, but they can quite often be very sort of intricate and sort of sometimes data led so it's lots of kind of numbers and statistics and we have done a few kind of stories with them where we've really tried to kind of like, untangle if you like some of the story and to present it to people in a different way, a more accessible way, if you like, yeah, we've had lots of feedback from people who have said, you know, I might not have gone and read that story. But then I listened to the podcast, I sort of understood the framing of it. And then I went and kind of read all of the content online.
Rhianna
And do you push to that in your episodes as well? Is that all kind of in the shownotes? Do you have episodes pages for all of those where people can then find links on the Guardian website?
Nicole
Yeah. And also, we like always kind of plug it at the end of the episode and say, you know, this is part of the reporting of like, the Pegasus series. And if you want to read more, you should go on to the guardian.com. So yes, yeah, we do.
Rhianna
Go on to podpod.com. And you will find so much more. Nicole, thank you so much.
Adam
We're not joking. Absolutely do that.
Rhianna
Nicole, thank you so much for joining us. It's been such a pleasure to talk to you. And you really kind of lifting the lid on what the Guardian are doing. It's really interesting. Thank you.
Nicole
Oh, it's a pleasure. Thank you so much.
Rhianna
So that was Nicole Jackson talking all about the Guardian, talking about their new podcasts, talking about their old podcasts, her experience. And she had so much experience actually, it was really interesting to hear the spread of the podcasts that she's worked on. Reem, what was a kind of big moment for you?
Reem
I was, I thought was amazing. Like, I thought that this was the most that I've actually learned about the logistics of podcasting, and how much work goes into it, especially since she mentioned she does endless amounts of pilots before actually launching.
Rhianna
So she said, between 10 and 20, I think it was probably more like 20.
Adam
Yeah, it's definitely on the upper end of that estimate.
Rhianna
Yeah. And that was finding a host, once they found the host, they had eight pilots, which is amazing, actually, to hear that companies are putting so much kind of money and resources into podcasting. That is quite cheering to hear.
Adam
I do. I it's nice to hear that, that it is properly resourced. I mean, one of the really interesting things that we've heard from other publishers we've spoken to, is that often, it's just the journalists kind of doing it essentially off their own backs and like working two jobs, basically. So it's really surprising, but nicely surprising to hear that the Guardian is just willing to shovel time and money into doing that many pilots for one podcast. Yeah,
Reem
I also think it's great like seeing the amount of research and funding that goes into creating just one podcast, it kind of also justifies why we see so many big publications on the charts all the time, like top of the charts, because it's not just the fact that they have the name, but it also is because they're putting in that much effort into creating a podcast. So obviously, there's privilege to it at the same time, there's a lot of attention to detail that makes it so great.
Adam
Yeah. Speaking of the charts, I think, possibly my favourite takeaway from that entire interview was Grace Dent in the chip bath.
Rhianna
In the chip bath! Oh, my goodness.
Adam
That's just fabulous.
Rhianna
Because it's such a gorgeous image of Grace Dent in the bath, and it's so decadent.
Adam
Iconic.
Rhianna
Yeah. And then to hear that she was just sitting on a pile of mushy chips, just takes away the magic.
Adam
It underlines the dedication that podcasters have to their craft. Really, aren't we all metaphorically sitting in our own baths of cold chips from time to time?
Rhianna
Speak for yourself, Adam. I think also because we've had Axel Kacoutie on our podcast because he is involved in so many, I just love hearing people talk about him. Just really like it.
Reem
We're both huge fangirls of him, it's great.
Rhianna
It is and also just hearing about the dedication that he takes. And I think it's easy to think somebody like Axel Kacoutie is across so much, he does have multiple resources, but also it does kind of boil down to his creativity, which doesn't take any money, and, and kind of finding new ways to express the stories through music. And I think that sort of thing is incredibly achievable at the same time. Although not, you know, you might need to be a genius, but I feel like that's down to him. That's less down to the Guardian, being this enormous platform, because I think when we do these sorts of interviews, it's very easy to be like, well, they have everything, of course their podcasts are going to be a huge success. What about if you are just a kind of grassroots doing it on your own, but I think it's those moments when you realise actually, if you are that way inclined, that's something that can really make your podcast stand out.
Reem
There was a point where Nicole mentioned that that someone on her team actually created a podcast from their own bedroom, and that she was very impressed by that. And I think that's that also says how much talent there is in the team where like even when they don't have the funding and they're not doing it for The Guardian, they're also using that time to create stuff on their own.
Rhianna
And actually speaking of Axel Kacoutie, who, as I might have mentioned was on the podcast, talking about Decode, there is a really great article that you've written, Reem, called How to achieve the perfect podcast launch where they do talk about Decode, but also there is so much stuff on there. So if you're interested in podcast launches, and why wouldn't you be, because you're listening to PodPod, then go to podpod.com. And you can read Reem's brilliant article, as well as so many others that are on there. Thank you so much for listening. That was a real pleasure, actually, what a lovely interview, Nicole Jackson was great. do sign up to our daily email bulletins, so you can hear all about the latest things from podpod.com And follow us on social at podpodofficial. And don't forget to rate and subscribe. We think we're great, but you know, you might not. Give us those one stars.
Adam
Please don't.
Rhianna
Thank you so much to Reem Makari and Adam Shepherd, the podcast is produced by Emma Corsham for Haymarket Business Media, and I've been your host Rhianna Dhillon. Thanks for listening.
