This is an automatically-generated transcript of the PodPod episode ‘Alastair Campbell: There are no rules in podcasting’. We apologise for any errors in spelling and grammar.
Rhianna
Hello and welcome to PodPod. My name is Rhianna Dhillon. I'm your host, and I am joined by Adam Shepherd, editor of PodPod, and Matt Hill, who runs production company Rethink Audio, and is the co-founder of the British Podcast Awards. So not really a big deal in any capacity in the podcast world. Hello, both. Lovely to see you again.
Matt
Good to see you Rhianna.
Adam
Hello, Rihanna.
Rhianna
So it has been a pretty wild week in the world of politics. This week we are very much delving into the world of news and political podcasts because we have a very impressive guest. He worked as Blair's spokesman and campaign director. He has been communications director for Downing Street. It is of course Alastair Campbell who will be talking all about his podcast with Rory Stewart, The Rest is Politics. Before we get into everything that we talked about with Alastair Campbell - and we did talk about pretty much everything - what is going on in the world of podcasts at the moment?
Adam
So the biggest news of the week in the world of podcasting is of course the launch of podpod.com, which will be the website for this podcast, and will be your source for everything to do with podcasting and the podcast industry. We are going to have industry news and last week I was at the IAB Podcast Upfronts and we've got some really juicy nuggets that came out of that. We've got outstanding features on the politics of co-hosting, how to use podcasts as a tool for promoting live events, the relationships between podcasting and mental health. All that and much, much more. So you can find that all at podpod.com.
Rhianna
So Matt, from your perspective, what are you hoping to get out of podpod.com?
Matt
Well, from my two perspectives, I suppose, I think first of all from the British Podcast Awards side, I think it's really interesting. So a little bit of background, that podpod is made by Haymarket. Haymarket acquired the British Podcast Awards early this year, and that really was the signal that Haymarket were serious about the podcast industry and getting into it. So, in a way, Haymarket are my bosses right now. So obviously I love PodPod, I love everything about PodPod. Um but I also um, I'm really excited about, PodPod because you know, we've built over the last, five or six years a reputation for being the big tent of the podcast industry that everyone big and small, all the players, whether you are making things in your house or in an office or wherever you are, and however big your company or um operation is, there's a place for you at the awards. And I think that's the same message that goes through Pod Pod as well. The stories that Adam and the team will be covering affect all of us and they might get into the minutiae and there might be stuff about reach and about growth and all those things, but there'll also be stuff about culture and development. And I think that's part of what's really fun about what we're doing here.
Rhianna
So Adam, earlier you did something very industry and you mentioned something that some people will have no idea what it is, which is Upfronts. So what is that? Is it a kind of festival or something?
Adam
I guess in a way. The IAB, which is the Internet Advertising Bureau, run a series of short one day conferences, effectively, called the Digital Upfronts, which is basically an opportunity for players in specific digital advertising spaces to showcase what they've been working on, what they've got coming up. So they've also done digital upfronts for gaming, for metaverse related things, they're doing one for YouTube, and the podcast one featured luminaries such as the likes of Wondery, Acast, Audioboom, Fresh Air, and various industry people sharing what they've got going on and how the advertising industry can interact with the wonderful world of podcasting.
Matt
And I saw you tweeting a bit about Pod Save UK, Adam.
Adam
Yes, this was another really exciting launch, from Crooked Media, who are the brains behind Pod Save America and Pod Save The World. They are expanding into a UK focused show with Pod Save The UK. Sadly, Pod Save The King was already taken. But Pod Save The UK is a new show that is being fronted by the wonderful Nish Kumar.
Rhianna
Ooh, that’s so interesting!
Adam
Who is no stranger to the world of podcasting, and yeah, a, a fabulous, fabulous comedian. So that'll be launching in early 2023.
Rhianna
So, so Nish Kumar is known also for The Mash Report. So he is no stranger to political commentary, so is the idea with Pod Save America that they are, they're former aides, right? So how is this, how do you envision this is gonna be, um, a bit different, Matt?
Matt
Well, I think, um, yeah, so the original Pod Save America team were Obama aides. And so they know how the, the sausage was made, as it were. But they're not wholly aligned to the Democrats. I think it's always worth saying. Their pitch is more progressives, so it is wider than the Democrats, and I think, I suspect they will take a similar tack in the UK as well. So you'll be looking at making sure that they'll be looking at the wider progressive movement, wherever that falls. You know, it's gonna be a talking shop. I think we'll expect to see a bit of that a bit of that kind of, um, John Oliver, style. Kind of like, what can we do with this? How can we take this on to another stage, more publicity stunts, that kind of thing, I think.
Adam
Mm. Yeah, and one of the really interesting links I think between Pod Save America in particular and The Rest Is Politics, is that they've both got that edge of having been on the inside from a political perspective. Campbell obviously, a longtime kind of New Labour power player. Roy Stewart, ex-Conservative minister, they've both got that real insight from being on the ground making these kinds of big decisions and being involved in, in the, the strategy. And that's something that has really given Pod Save America, uh, a big edge and certainly seems to be a large part of the, the popularity of The Rest Is Politics as well.
Rhianna
So now we have teased Alastair Campbell, as in we've teased him to you. We haven't just sat and tickled him.
Adam
Yeah, we’re not just sat in the studio tickling him.
Rhianna
I think it's time to have him on. So here is co-host of The Rest Is Politics, Alastair Campbell. Alastair Campbell, welcome to PodPod. Thank you so much for joining us.
Alastair
A pleasure. How are you, Rhianna?
Rhianna
All good. I'm very excited to have you on actually. Um, so I didn't realise with The Rest Is Politics, that it was actually a Twitter poll which decided your fate. Is that right?
Alastair
Uh, sort of. It wasn't Twitter as much as Instagram, actually.
Rhianna
Oh gosh. Much trendier.
Alastair
Um, a bit of Twitter and a bit of Instagram. Um, but it started out with a guy called Tony Pastor, who is a fellow Burnley fan and I've known for years going to Burnley games and he works for Goalhanger, Gary Linekar’s production company. And they'd been doing The Rest Is History very successfully. And he approached me and said, Look, we think we'd like to do one called The Rest Is Politics. We think it should be you plus a Tory and I said, Well, there's a bit of a problem with that Tony. I don't really like Tories very much. I've spent most of my life trying to kind of, you know, put them outta business. Um, and so they then said, Oh, well what about doing it with Dominic Cummings? And I said, hmm, not sure that would work. But we had, I did have a chat with Dominic Cummings about it. Um, I think we both agreed actually that it'd be very, very interesting for a couple of weeks. And then I think we'd sort of, you know, I think you'd have to have security there and police and it’d all get very, very difficult.
Um, so that, anyway, so I, I'd done a podcast before with my daughter and I'd quite enjoyed it, but it sort of became a little bit of a bind because people were expecting it at a certain time every week. And so I wasn't a hundred percent convinced. But then I said I did a, an Instagram live and a Twitter thing where I basically said if I was doing a podcast with a Tory, who do you think it should be? And an awful lot of people said, Rory Stewart. So I thought that's interesting. There's obviously something going on here. There were lots of other names, but you know, if I were to say there was one dominant name,it was definitely Rory Stewart. I knew he was working abroad cause I'd heard him on the radio talking about something. So I phoned him up, and I said, What do you think? And he said, Yeah, that sounds really good fun. And away we went.
Rhianna
So just to go back to the podcast that you did with your daughter, and you said you really liked it, what was it about the kind of art of podcasting that you enjoyed that had been different from something that you'd done before?
Alastair
It was, I mean, doing it with Grace was good fun, and we called it Football, Feminism, and Everything In Between. Football cause that's my passion. Feminism cause that's hers. And, but it was really just an excuse to talk about anything. And, and it was more interview based. We got some, you know, good people on there. And um, but I, thought, what I like about it, I think what I like about it is that there are kind of no rules.
There are rules cause you set your own, but there are no rules being set by anybody else. Um, it's funny last night, cause I'll give you an example. Last night I was on the BBC Newscast. And we were chatting away about leadership and Truss and Kwarteng and all that. And much the same stuff that we've been talking about on The Rest Is Politics.
But it was interesting how, for example, when I said something like, um, so then Kwarteng gets on a plane and they'd say the Chancellor or then I'd say, and then they sack Tom Scholar, the permanent secretary of the Treasury. And I completely get that cause they’re, you know, it's a different sort of medium. And I think when we are talking, we… look, I, I'm a trained journalist and I like, but I, but I, I think, I don't feel the need to be so, you know, speaking like a journalist, I speak like however I want to speak. And, and I think the other thing I like is the, and we got this, definitely Grace and I both got this when we were doing our podcast and we're getting it in spades now because of the numbers that are listening to The Rest Is Politics. It's this sense the conversation doesn't end when the podcast does. You know, when I'm walking around the place I've had, I get more people at the moment talking to me about this than anything, media-wise, that I've ever done.
Rhianna
Really. That’s interesting.
Alastair
By a long way, by a long way. If I was, if I was say on, you know, BBC News or Sky News or Good Morning Britain or something like that, I'd go and do it and then I'd be wandering around London during the day and you might get three or four people will say, Oh, saw you on the telly this morning or whatever. With this, it's honestly been, and Rory's getting the same, even in Jordan. He's based in Jordan. He's got people in Jordan saying, I was in Dublin, I was doing a speech in Dublin on Tuesday and I had two people in the airport lounge. I had, uh, a guy as I was checking in to the Radisson Blu Hotel. I'm standing there at this desk checking in. The guy at the next desk says, I'm loving your podcast. Irish guy. That is happening all the time. It's really, really quite overwhelming.
Rhianna
That's really interesting, so were you expecting your listener base to be as broad? Who were you initially trying to speak to and how has, has that kind of been enhanced through the podcast?
Alastair
I mean, when it started I, I was a little bit in suck it and see sort of mode. I want, look, I'm very, very competitive. I wanted it to do well. If I do anything, I want it to go well. One of the first things we had to kind of fix was the fact that Rory and I both travel a lot and Rory's living in a different part of the world. What was important was, was getting decent technology so that the sound quality would be very good. And I remember Jack who works for Goalhanger saying, you know, if you get, if you start a podcast, the sound has got to be really, really good. And that was, you know, that's something I hadn't maybe thought about when Grace and I were doing it and were just sort of quite often using our phones and what have you, and then, I think that what I was assuming was that it would be people who would broadly be in that kind of center ground of politics. Me, left of center, Rory right of center, but me identified as being very kind of New Labour, not part of the whole Corbyn thing, and Rory Stewart very much kind of on the one nation Tory, and nothing to do with the Johnson stuff.
And then I think that's how it really started. And then I think a lot of it became, there is quite a good kind of chemistry there. We, are, we are similar, but we're also different. But I didn't have any expectations in terms of the numbers. I, I didn't, I didn't sort of say to myself, you know, success would mean A or B or C, I just didn't think of it in those terms.
I wanted to see how it went. To be honest, at the back of my mind, I was thinking, I'll, I'll know very quickly whether I'm gonna enjoy this or not. If either of us had felt after a month or so, do you know what, this has proven to be a bit of a hassle and we can't fit the time in, and I don't think either of us would've had a problem with saying, let's call it a day.
But it became successful pretty much immediately and has been growing ever since. I just had a message through today that this week has been the highest yet, and it was the same last week, and it was the same the week before.
Rhianna
So that's, you’re growing it week on week. So it's nothing to do necessarily with what's happening in the news.
Alastair
It might be to do with that. I, I think people are at the moment particularly kind of engaged and fascinated by this sort of horror show where we've had the horror show of Johnson, we've now got the horror show of Truss. There's so much interesting stuff happening around the world and I think the other thing I talked about there being no rules as it were. No kind of news gathering rules for what we do. Rory and I have both got a lot of interest in the world outside the UK and you know, so for example, last week we had a long discussion about Yemen and that came because a guy that I used to work with who's currently working in Yemen, basically sent me a long email telling me what was happening in Yemen, where he now works with the World Food Program and I thought, well, Rory knows about Yemen as well. I'm thinking, you know, when was the last time I read anything about Yemen in one of our newspapers or heard anything about Yemen on one of our main broadcast channels? So we had a discussion about, about Yemen. I'll tell you one thing that really surprised me. We've done a few interviews now and most of them are just Rory and I talking, but we've done a few interviews, the interview we did with the Albanian Prime Minister, Edi Rama, of whom most of our listeners had probably never heard. Okay. But the numbers were extraordinary. And again, that must be word of mouth. That must be people who are listening to it and then saying God, you should listen to this one. It's really quite interesting. We've had no marketing budget. We've had, you know, I mean, I'm, I'm quite good at plugging stuff. I do plug away merrily, I'm teaching Rory how to plug. Um, but we had no real push on it. We have these great little films that The Rest Is Politics team made that we promote on social media, but there's no advertising budget, none of that. So we are totally reliant on people coming to it and staying with it and then spreading the word and, and it seems to be working.
Rhianna
You've got this kind of brilliant, I think it's friendly rivalry with The News Agents, Maitlis and Sopel and Goodall.
Alastair
You mean the runners up, we call them.
Rhianna
I mean, it's so entertaining, genuinely, just just that kind of really niche joke. But do you think that you are both helping each other in the world of political podcasts in that people will not choose one or the other, but they'll actually come to both because you're kind of helping to pique an interest.
Alastair
Well, they can't be going to both because we only do two a week and they do five a week and we are still ahead of them in the charts. So if you think about the maths of that there, there are obviously a lot of people listening to ours, not listening to theirs. But you know, I wish them well. I know all three of them well. and Emily and John. And I think Lewis is terrific. I think he's, I think he's just a very good journalist.
I think they're all good journalists, No, I think it's great. When I, when I looked, I mean, I looked this morning, you know, look, I have a quick sneaky look at the charts. We were number one, they were number two. And I'm thinking, this is Britain, right? Two essentially political podcasts are the number one and number two in the UK chart at the moment.
I mean, I think that's great. When you think that one of the complaints that people like me and our generation has is, Oh my God, you know, why aren't people more interested in the things that matter and less interested in the things that don't like Kim bloody Kardashian or whatever. Now that celebrity stuff, I'm not saying that that isn't important to an awful lot of people and it still goes on, but I think the fact that this is happening is really good. I think it shows that there's an interest.
I think it shows that people want to be informed and I think it shows that they feel they're not necessarily getting that from what, you know, I hate the phrase mainstream media cause it can mean whatever you want it to mean, but I think people feel now that newspapers are not really newspapers. I think they do feel that with a lot of broadcast media that it, it almost feels like you're watching people inside a straight jacket a lot of the time. And I don't actually feel you know that John and Emily and Lewis, I don't think that they've become different sort of journalists. I just think they express themselves in a slightly different way. But I think they're very different to what we do. I think, I think they are still basically journalists, whereas I think Rory and I both see ourselves as people who are trying to kind of bring together both what we do, what we know from what we've done, particularly in politics itself and you know, the bit of journalistic rigor. Um, but we, but it's so nice not having to think, so like the other day, for example, we did one and in the introduction, said we're gonna talk about this and this and this and this. And then at the end I realized we hadn't talked about one of the thises, so should we ah, well, so, you know, so what, move on. It sort of doesn't matter that much.
Rhianna
Yeah, we've got an interview coming up actually with Dino Sofos who produces News Agents, and it's really interesting.
Alastair
We call him the director of the runners up.
Rhianna
Right. Yep. Yeah, I'm sure he'll take that title gladly. Do you think that this whole idea of these political podcasts being top of the charts each week, do you think that's reflecting a shift within Westminster, are podcasts becoming more popular? Is that how people are communicating within Westminster as well as getting news outside of it?
Alastair
Look, there's no doubt that a lot of MPs listen to us. Cause we get feedback from them. A lot of diplomats and a lot of civil servants and so forth. The stuff that I really enjoy is, when it becomes apparent as it does a lot just going around the place that so-called quote ordinary people are listening a lot. But you know, do most MPs still have the kind of default position of going downstairs and turning the radio on and putting the Today program on? I think probably. But has that diminished a bit? I think it probably has. Do MPs read newspapers in the way that they did? I think they probably read more newspapers than the members of the public, but I think they probably have declined in that as well. The other thing I've noticed is, is that people have their own listening habits and they develop them. So you get people who say, Oh, I love it. Cause my, my train journey every day is 45 minutes. You get other people who are saying like, you know, I've got this whole stash of podcasts in my car. Guy said to me, the. I'm really looking forward to my next long drive cause I can just listen to a few back to back. You know, you wouldn't do that with newspapers. You wouldn't say, Oh, I'll stack up a week's worth of the Financial Times and go for a long train ride.
Rhianna
But that, the whole point of that is because newspapers are daily and you're getting that news daily and the next day that's already out of date. And you would imagine the same with regular podcasts. So how does that translate then, if people are kind of stacking them up and you are, talking about news that happened two months ago?
Alastair
I think because although we do talk about news, I think I go back to the point I made about the difference between us and The News Agents is that this bit about, we do, I think we, both of us do have observations and the stories to tell that are, you know, almost the, the, the ones that, the stuff that's set in the past, I think, but trying to have a discussion about the future.
So, you know, I, you've gotta be careful about, I hate it when I find myself, you know, oh I remember that time when, or, but you know, sometimes it's that stuff that I think people will go back to and listen. So part of this growth that we are seeing, according to the people who look at the data, is it's people who, who have come to us late and are now going back and listening to earlier stuff, often quite randomly.
Rhianna
Interesting.
Alastair
But when you go on and you look at the stuff and it tells you what we're talking about on a particular, on a particular episode, and they'll go back and say, So I had, I had an email the other day from a guy said he'd gone back and listened to that time when we were talking a lot about the Northern Ireland protocol, for example. It's almost like it's a resource there that people can use for, whether it's for entertainment, whether to pass the time on a drive. I had a fantastic, I was so chuffed about this, but I had an email this morning from a, a politics teacher who'd been at our show in Blackpool and he said he'd come back and was talking about it and he said he couldn't believe the enthusiasm amongst these kids who are studying politics about wanting to talk about it.
So he's trying to take them to our next live show. so that kind of thing is just like, I don't think you'd get that by writing a newspaper column in the same way.
Rhianna
We spoke to Jess Phillips recently on Podcast DAy 24 and she is a politician, an mp. She has her own podcast, which is, I think, very successful because she comes across as very authentic on it, and she's not necessarily talking about politics. When you were running comms for number 10, would you have let an MP have their own podcast that kind of was exposing and made them vulnerable?
Alastair
Oh yeah, I think so. I mean I, I, I know we, I had a reputation for sort of trying to keep everything under control, but that didn't mean that you stopped people trying to communicate in innovative and different ways. You know, it's like, for example, David Lammy has his LBC show and you could argue the same that, well, isn't that, doesn't that mean he, there might be occasions when he is having to say things that cause the Labour party difficulty, but you know, if you're a kind of decent professional, clever, sensible politician, you can have that authenticity without feeling that every time you open your mouth, you're gonna cause trouble for your own side. I get this cause of course you didn't even have social media when I was doing the job. Would I have, you know, welcomed every MP having their own Twitter account, having their own Instagram account? Well, I think in the early days I'd have been a bit kind of worried about it, but then I think as long as they are clear what the overall strategic message is, then they ought to be able to communicate within that. So no, I wouldn't have had a problem with that.
Rhianna
Another thing that Jess said actually was when we asked her, like, who her dream podcast partner would be, she said Boris Johnson. I guess because that would've been fairly explosive and entertaining for listeners. Would that, would that be… I wish everyone could see your face right now. So that's a no from you on Boris, coming on your podcast,
Alastair
No, listen, I wouldn't mind him having on as an interviewee. I wouldn't want, to, I wouldn't, I wouldn't wanna do a podcast with him. No, absolutely not. The thing I'll say about Rory Stewart, it's like this TV show I'm doing at the moment with Sayeeda Warsi. I can't work with people that I don't have at least some respect for. I've got no respect for Boris Johnson. Literally none. You know, I, I hesitate to, to use Nicola Sturgeon's word, detest, but I, I, I don't, I don't, I'm enjoying the fact that at the moment I don't have to think about him or talk about him too much.
Rhianna
Well, let's move swiftly on from Boris then.
Alastair
We call him Johnson, Rhianna. We don't call him Boris. We call him Johnson.
Rhianna
I call him a lot of things. Do you, because you've both kind of been in Westminster, you and Rory, do you try and maintain objectivity when you're doing the podcast or is the whole point of doing it the complete opposite, that you can do and say whatever you want and it doesn't matter about which side, or you just say what you genuinely think?
Alastair
Well, we have this sort of motto if we agree, agree, and if we disagree, disagree agreeably. And we've had a couple of times when, when it's got quite, you know, spiky, but I think even when we're talking about our opponents, I think we try to be reasonable. I'm prone to, look, I, I know this. It's, my background is the Daily Mirror when Mrs. Thatcher was Prime Minister and my whole approach in political campaigning is you go hard for your opponents. But I do try to be, I think I'm more reasonable on the podcast than I am maybe when I'm one on one say, with, you know, a Nigel Farage or a John Redwood or Ian Duncan Smith. And I think that's cause Rory's very reasonable. Although I think he can be pretty tough. noticed his hackles rise pretty much every time that the subject of the SNP comes up. I think he talks about the left in a kind of homogenous way that I will usually give a label to the right, you know, the libertarian right, the hard right, the far right. You know, I would put him on the right, but I wouldn't lump him in with, you know, Farage or, or Johnson. Um, so yeah, I think we try to be, objective’s probably the wrong word. What we try to do is to be fair, but not hide our own views.
Rhianna
So something happened recently where you and Rory were actually in a room together recording your podcast, which happens very, very rarely. As you kind of pointed out, Rory lives on a different continent. How do you find, first of all, recording on Zoom? Does that give you a bit more flexibility or is it actually quite challenging to have a decent conversation with all the kind of the stops and starts that technology affords?
Alastair
Do you know what, the worst we had with the technology was when I was in Edinburgh.
Rhianna
That's where I am right now.
Alastair
Oh, yeah. Well, honestly, I was in, was at a hotel in Edinburgh. The Wi-Fi was just an absolute nightmare.
Rhianna
Are we in the same hotel?
Alastair
The week before I'd been in, in the Ivory Coast.
Rhianna
Oh really? And it was much better there?
Alastair
In, a, in a little guest house. It was absolutely fine then I’m in Edinburgh, and it was a total disaster. Um, do you know what I, I think at the start I felt it would be a real, a real obstacle and a handicap to effective, clear conversation. But I think actually it works to our benefit. One of the things I think people like about our podcast is we don't talk over each other. At least if we do, it's very rare. We don't talk at the same time. And I think that's because we can see each other, but we know that the audience can't see us. So I can indicate to Rory that I want to cut in, or he can indicate to me that he wants to cut in. And likewise, when we've had guests, so for example, uh, Edi Rama. And when we did Tony Blair, and when we did Kier Starmer, um, I was in the room with them and Rory was on a laptop.
And what it meant was that if I felt I was talking too much, I could point at Rory and say, You do the next question. And likewise, if he wanted to come in, he could indicate that. so I think actually it's been, it's been not bad. And the, as I say, you know, Jack from the podcast team said, You know, as long as we get the sound right, that's the most important thing. And, you know, I think sometimes both of us maybe go on a bit too long, but I think people do like that sense of, you know, we're not constantly interrupting each other and we're trying not to talk over each other.
Rhianna
The fact that you two are over Zoom means that you don't have to coordinate necessarily a time to be in the same place, which I think is a lot harder than just picking up your laptop and doing it wherever on your microphone. And that this happens. I think you were trying to go swimming and, Rory was like, No, we need to do an emergency podcast. So for you, what constitutes an emergency podcast? Where's the bar for that?
Alastair
Uh, I think it's gotta be pretty high.
Rhianna
To stop you going swimming?
Alastair
No, I actually, I, so like for example, we are talking on the day that everybody is saying that Kwasi Kwarteng is saying is gonna get the bullet. I think that's probably pretty close to it.
Rhianna
Mm-hmm.
Alastair
You know, but, but then it will be a question of whether we're both around and available. and that's not always been. So a couple of times I think we've thought about doing them, it just hasn't been possible because we've been doing other stuff. But yeah, I think that would be, I think it would have to be of that kind of level.
Rhianna
Would you prioritize the podcast now over other things?
Alastair
Yeah, it would depend what they were. Today, I'm, I'm actually working on a book at the moment and I'm trying to break the back of it at the moment. And I, and I gave myself yesterday, and today is two days really to kind of, you know, crack on. But you know, I guess the fact that I'm doing this means that, yeah, I would probably, because this is part of promoting it and talking about it and getting it better known. Yeah, I think if Kwasi does get the boot today, I think we'd probably think it's worth doing something in the next 24 hours for sure.
Rhianna
Yeah. Well, you just mentioned that you know, you know when to stop talking and to bring in other people. So this is the point that I'm gonna bring in, Matt, my long time PodPod contributor. Matt, over to you.
Matt
Thank you Rhianna. I mean, one of the appeals to me about the show is that you are really teaching people or reminding people how to have a conversation across the divide. Like that actually, you can enjoy talking politics with people that have different views to you. I mean, you mentioned the Today program earlier, which obviously has a very adversarial tone and rightly so.
But does that feel like the reason for the podcast in a way, that, the rise of these political podcasts is partly to have a space, a safe space that you can have these conversations without having too many sort of distracting tangents, ut what about this, what about this, kind of arguments, going alongside, Do you feel that when you are making the show?
Alastair
Well, we get a lot of feedback from people who say that they do feel that we, amidst giving our opinions about what's going on in the world, that we do give an awful lot of information. We do inform people about issues. Take something like, if you say the select committee chairman, I think actually taking half a minute, to explain what a select committee is and how the chairman becomes the chairman and what their role is; I guess what I'm saying is we don't, we assume that the people who listen are interested and have a, pretty intelligent because they, they're interested in, this, you know, interesting and difficult subjects. But at the same time, we try not to assume too much Uh, and actually Rory's become almost Lewis Goodall-like, and is kind of, you know, he keeps saying, for people who haven't been following this as closely as we do, this is the situation and this is what happened. And and I, we get good feedback on that. And I think the thing about having the conversation, I do think one of the reasons those that are coming to it are enjoying it is because the debate as we consume it in most of the media that we define as the media is so polarized, it's, you know, he's bad. And if I disagree with him, that means I'm good. And if I'm good, he's bad. And it just goes round and round and round in circles and we can have disagreements. We have ongoing, never ending disagreement about austerity. We disagree about other policies. We probably have slightly different views about things to do with, you know, British traditions and all that sort of stuff.
But, you know, when, when it gets to talking about things like Yemen or, you know, the Russian and Chinese influence in Africa and so forth, I think we're just trying to give an opinion, an assessment, but we're trying to pack it full of information that people aren't necessarily finding elsewhere.
Matt
I suppose there's that thing about, you know, after Brexit, the way in which Christmases would be more difficult with certain family members and having to sort of finish conversations in a way which meant that you could still get on with each other for the rest of the holiday break was something that a lot of people would talk about, particularly around my generation. I wonder if, you know, just the format of the show where you have, I mean, you have to see each other for every episode, so it can't get too rancorous. Is there like a bit of a, a rip-cord that you pull in your conversation? Are you aware or do you talk about like how far you can take something down a route before you go actually, we just need to pull the conversation back onto something constructive and, and, uh, reasonable to move on to the next item.
Alastair
I think the only time we got to that was when it was during the Northern Ireland protocol debates that we had, when looking back, it did become very, very heated and I think Rory was quite taken aback by how kind of angry I was. And I, I guess at that point I wasn't necessarily so angry with him so much as with the government and what they were doing at that time. That's the only time I think we've got close to thinking, Whoa, hold on a minute. That, that, that really got a bit, a bit over the top. Look, I think that phrase, it's actually a phrase from John Bercow, you know, if we're going to disagree, let's try and disagree agreeably.
I think that's a very, that's what we try to, that's what we try to do and if we overstep the mark, I think, you know, I think the production team are quite good at saying that, feedback we get is that what people like about it is that you guys can disagree but you don't kind of scream abuse at each other.
I'm probably more prone to getting het up and hot tempered than Rory. I think Rory actually is somebody who doesn't really enjoy, kind of full on confrontation. Whereas I, I've always quite liked it. I think he's probably communicates in a way that he always has, whereas I, on this, communicate in a way that I'm sometimes conscious of trying to communicate in a different way than I would if I was in a six minute debate on Newsnight with Nigel Farage.
Matt
When you, uh, started the podcast, did you have an exit strategy planned out or are you doing this long, long term? Because most podcasts that are successful, are still going years later. So is that something you are thinking about or is there like a replacement cast in mind? Can it outlive you and Rory?
Alastair
I think for both of us, I think, you know, for Rory, it's definitely given him a kind of renewed political platform. Having been booted out of the Conservative Party by, by Johnson. For me as well, the other thing that's happened with it, sometimes stuff just falls nicely like this.
Before I started doing it, I was already starting work on this book that I'm writing, which is about the regeneration of political engagement. So it's kind of perfect for that as well. I think we just keep going while we both enjoy it. If, I mean Rory's just taken on this pretty big full-time job, and one of the things he insisted when he took the job was he wanted to carry on doing the podcast. And that would require a bit of time each week. So, you know, if I was suddenly offered the managership of Burnley Football Club, which is the only job that I would sort of give up my freedom for, you know, I'd, I'd like to think I could still find time to do the podcast.
Matt
Yeah, you've got like an audience now like that you are custodians of, like they are kind of, they've built you into their, their time and I think it's kind of interesting, some podcasters, I think when they suddenly get a success and it's a big success, they suddenly realize the responsibility they have in people's lives to kind of continue to make things which, which are, which are helping to guide and, and, uh, guide their audience.
Alastair
I think, I think we both have the feeling that this has become really enjoyable for both of us. Successful. and I think is playing a part in trying to get a different sort of debate going in the country. You know, I mean to this morning, the, we've put tickets on sale for this show at the Palladium, sold out in seven minutes.
Rhianna
Oh my goodness. That's in March.
Alastair
I know. It's mad. It's absolutely mad.
Matt
Have you started thinking about how you will cover the next general election? Because you'll still be going then, I imagine.
Alastair
Not really; I guess once we get nearer to an into an election campaign, depending upon what you know, I mean, who knows whether either of us will be in any way involved directly and whether that would change things. I've never, ever hidden, I mean, I said it again on the podcast yesterday.
I've never hidden my, despite being expelled by Labour, I'm a hundred percent a Labour supporter and I want Labour to win the next election. I'm not gonna hide that. Rory said on the latest podcast that he couldn't vote for Liz Truss’ Tory party, but he doesn't yet know how he would vote. I hope even those who see me as a hundred percent Labour, which I am, but you know, within the Labour leadership, I think occasionally they get a bit antsy about some of the things I say.
I don't feel I'm a propagandist in the way that maybe I was, when I was a journalist, when I, I tended to avoid saying anything that was bad for the Labour Party. I think I've got a more open mind about stuff, but I try to do it in a, well, I think I, I guess what I'm saying is I think with the Tories in particular, Johnson and now Truss, I'm very much, these are bad people. This is a terrible government. They've got to go. With Labour, I see myself much more as the critical friend, and I think that's how I'd be in an election campaign.
Rhianna
You and Rory have been really open about the importance of mental health, and you've been particularly open about your struggle with depression in terms of recording and, you know, the topics that you're covering day in, day out can presumably add to that. So how do you prioritize your mental health when your podcast is kind of always needing to be done?
Alastair
Well, funny enough, that time that I was in Edinburgh when the Wi-Fi wasn't good, we hadn't planned to talk about it, I don't think, but Rory kicked off with one of his little sort of, you know, how are you today? And one of my sort of things I campaign on in mental health is that if you ask, how are you, you should mean it and you should give honest answers.
And so I basically said, well, I'm actually not very good at the moment. I'm in a bit of a bit of a downward spiral. And we ended up talking about it and he was very sympathetic, and we had amazing feedback from that. So, and, and I, I do think that the old thing about it’s good to talk, I think sometimes when I am in a bit of a downward phase, forcing myself to do stuff that's in the diary because it's the diary, even if I don't do a hundred percent to my own satisfaction, it, it's good to do. And um, so I remember actually, even though I, I stayed in the depression after that, I do remember feeling quite good that I'd done the podcast and we'd got through it. Um, so yeah, I, I, I think it's, look, it's in there. We've got, we've got the times for the next several weeks. I know when we're gonna record. I know where I'm, I know roughly where I'm gonna be. Um, we've got a couple of quite big interviews lined up in the next few weeks. I know, I know when I'm gonna prepare for them. So I just, I just kind of, I think, I think on balance, the whole thing's been good for my mental health probably.
Rhianna
How do you choose your podcast guests? Because as you say, you've, you've had kind of a real interesting mix, so if you've kind of got them coming up, they're not necessarily always spontaneous, what's happening in the news right now. So how have you been deciding that? Is that just between you and Rory, or is it the whole production team?
Alastair
I think. I mean, I actually don't think we should be doing the people who are in the news. I think if somebody's doing interviews left, right and center, we should probably avoid them. Tony Blair seemed a pretty obvious one. We had a lot of people saying we'd love it if you interviewed Tony Blair, Kier Starmer was an obvious one. Um, William Hague actually was, um, that that came because I kept saying to Rory, you know, I can't just keep pulling in these guests on myself. Could you get a Tory, please?
Um, so, and William Hague, that was, I thought that was a really good interview; then. Edi Rama. A bit left field, but you know, our first serving Prime Minister. and I think at the moment we are focusing very much on what I would call A-list politicians, but I think we are going to broaden out, I think we're going to broaden out into, um, particularly now with the period we're going in, going into, you know, getting somebody on who's an economist rather than a politician. Cause you know, neither Rory nor I are economists, but we sort of sit here and talk knowingly about, you know, GDP debt ratios and the gilt markets and blah, blah, blah. Um, so actually we might broaden out into something like that. Um, but yeah, generally we just sort of ping ideas around and then we, you know, we, we approach them.
So our next two are a former president of France and a former Prime Minister of Australia, um, who, you know, I just happen to know and like, and get on with and, wheel 'em in.
Rhianna
You often kind of hear that celebrities shouldn't be discussing politics. You know, a lot of people, that's a lot of feedback often from audiences. What's your take on that? You know, would you be up for somebody like Gary Linekar coming on your podcast seeing as it's kind of under his production company?
Alastair
Yeah. Well, I'd, I'd Gary, I mean Gary, Gary Linekar would be restricted because of his BBC uh, position. I know Gary really well, and he is a good friend of mine and, uh, I think he, I think he'd find it very limiting, but I’d definitely have Gary Neville.
Rhianna
Yeah - who was on The News Agents recently?
Alastair
And was also at the Labour party conference speaking with, with Kier Starmer. Yeah. And I think I'd have people in sport, for example. I mean, Rory's not very interested in sport, which is a bit of a problem. But I would, but I would have people in sport, you know, to talk about leadership.
I remember when Jurgen Klopp, for example, when he said something a while back, he said, I just, I love this country, but I don't understand how you keep putting people like Farage and Johnson in positions of power. I'd love to talk to him about that and about how he relates his own upbringing and character to his own leadership.
And so I don't think I’d have to, I think we could definitely broaden out, and of course you know, I also do interviews for Men's Health and I write for the New European. And I've done, you know, for years I was interviewing for GQ. Um, I like interviewing, I like, I like, I like conversational interviews.
I like doing interviews without a set agenda and just going on and, and talking. I did one recently with Eddie Jones, the England Rugby Coach, and he's definitely somebody I'd love to get on the podcast at a later date.
Rhianna
I can't believe Burnley haven't got you to do a podcast for them yet.
Alastair
I did their, um, I did, I presented their film of our, of our journey in Europe.
Rhianna
That's as close as you've got. Let's petition for the next, for the new Burnley podcast.
Alastair
I thought you were gonna, I thought you were gonna say, I can't believe Burnley haven’t offered you the manager's job, but yeah. And I agree with that.
Rhianna
Alastair Campbell, thank you so much for joining us on PodPod.
Alastair
My pleasure. My pleasure.
Rhianna
So that was our chat with Alastair Campbell and I think one of the most interesting things, well the bit that I really enjoyed actually was us asking him about the emergency episode and about whether or not Kwarteng being sacked would merit one, as we were talking, Kwarteng was indeed sacked.
And I am so gutted about that missed opportunity that we didn't realize that because that would've been such a great, little chat there and then, but…
Adam
I mean, you take your eye off the ball for 30 seconds in politics, you do one hour long record, and then everything happens while you're off. I mean, fortunately, or unfortunately, I suppose, as we're all consummate professionals, everyone had their notifications switched off. So it was only after we wrapped the recording and started checking Twitter and whatnot again, that everyone was like, oh wow.
Rhianna
Absolutely wild.
Matt
And then since then one suspects there will be another emergency podcast before the end of the week. I. They have to, right? They have to have one.
Adam
Definitely. Absolutely.,
Matt
Definitely keep an eye on the feed, cause I'd be very interested to see what Rory Stewart makes of what's been going on this week.
Adam
Then at this point, and we did sort of touch on it during the discussion, there is enough happening at the moment to put out an episode on a virtually hourly basis.
Rhianna
Yes, indeed.
Matt
And that is to a certain extent, the peril of podcasting and I do think to a certain extent with podcasts, you know, we are a little bit like magazines more than we are websites, we can't react that quickly. We can't turn things around and update minute by minute. So we have to be reflective. Uh, we have to be not evergreen necessarily, but certainly contemplative about the news that we cover so that we don't end up throwing things out too often or too regularly that people can't consume them. Uh, we're not the radio and nor should we, I think we're, we're two very different mediums. And that's why this week was a good week to tune into the Today program.
Rhianna
That's a really good point, but also, I guess people also look to social media accounts, right? Of podcast presenters and producers if they want that minute by minute update because I, I, dunno about you, but you know, I'm interested in what Sopel and Maitlis and Sofos and Campbell are saying about that. And I don't necessarily need a 45 minute podcast to tell me a blow by blow account because, we can save that for the Tuesdays and the Thursdays that their podcasts do come out. But yeah, I think that maybe that is the power. Maybe we need to do, um, an episode on social media and podcasting. I think that would be quite an interesting one.
Matt
Well, it's all fantastic advertising for those shows.
Rhianna
Absolutely. Thank you so much, Matt and Adam. Now everybody who's listening, please do follow us on social media at PodPodOfficial just to hear all of our immediate thoughts and commentary on what's happening day to day with PodPod. You can peruse our new website, podpod.com, as Adam mentioned at the top.
Thank you so much for listening. Please rate and subscribe. Thank you once more to Matt Hill and Adam Shepherd. PodPod is produced by Emma Corsham for Haymarket Business Media. Next week we'll be joined by the team behind Spotify original Decode. Very, very exciting and interesting chat with some very, very charming men. Um, my name is Rhianna Dhillon, I've been your host. We'll see you next week.
