This is an automatically-generated transcript of the PodPod episode ‘Deborah Meaden: putting the message before the money’. We apologise for any errors in spelling and grammar.
Rhianna Dhillon
Hello and welcome to PodPod - an all new show bringing you expert insight and guidance on the business and craft of podcasting. We'll be talking to podcast hosts and producers about their strategies for success, as well as speaking to the media agencies, studios and platform holders who are driving the industry's growth. My name is Rhianna Dhillon, and each week, I'll be taking you through everything you need to know about the wonderful world of podcasting. Later on. We'll be hearing from Deborah Meaden about The Big Green Money Show, and how she applies her business acumen to promoting her podcast. First though, I'm joined by Matt Hill from Rethink Audio. Hi, Matt.
Matt Hill
Hello!
Rhianna
And also PodPod editor, Adam Shepherd. So before we really get into the bones of the show, let's talk about PodPod. Adam, what's it all about?
Adam Shepherd
So PodPod is a new editorial brand, that is really going to be digging in to the world of podcasting; what makes it tick, the people involved, and really how the industry is growing and expanding and evolving. The industry is in a really interesting place right now. And we're going to be digging into why that is, the business side of things, how to monetise your podcast, how to grow your podcast, how to take it from an individual solo project for bedroom creatives, all the way up to a profitable, viable media business.
Rhianna
And we've picked the name PodPod because it's a podcast about podcasting for podcasters. But also, because we just love the plosive Ps, and we love to pop into our microphone.
Matt
Mic placement, very much key to the success of this format.
Adam
Really testing the proficiency of our pop filters.
Rhianna
Now I don't have one. So apologies for my popping. So, Matt, every week, we are going to be kind of talking about what is going on in the world of the podcast industry and finding out the latest news. And I really, really hope that you're the person to talk to you about this because I've gotta say...
Matt
Oh, I was hoping you were gonna tell me some! Well, I tell you what I can bring to the table this week, I saw a really great bit of research done by Sounds Profitable's Tom Webster about promo codes, which I don't know how much you've used promo codes in podcasting before.
Rhianna
I've got to be honest, I've heard them a lot but I've never ever needed a mattress, so...
Matt
I think, I think the last time I used one would have been when I got a Squarespace trial and used answer, which is the old Answer Me This one. Even though the, it's been a while since they, they ended now. But you know, I feel like, chuck 'em a little bit of promo, a little bit of, a little bit of promo love every now and then just to say that we still remember you. But either way, the research was showing that there was really great retention, as we all know about listening to ads. And they surveyed a number of people playing different versions of an ad. So one with promo codes, one which was host read, one which was from an announcer point of view from the same native show, and seeing how effective they were. And the promo codes they found weren't really being used by the audience. However, they were still going searching online for the product and purchasing it. So there was a huge engagement and a real connection with the product that was being sold. But they weren't necessarily using the promo code. So I think sometimes when you're writing those Manscaped ads for the fifth month in a row and wondering how can you, how can you punch this up again, there's only so many you can do, I think, yes, spend some time thinking of a memorable promo code. For example, we do a Formula One show and all of our promo codes are just the same word repeated three times, cause it keeps it memorable. So for Manscaped we use balls, balls, balls. That's our promo code. And that's become a bit of a hashtag for the show online, which I'm not sure I'm happy with. But it does seem to. So there's definitely listener retention of the promo code. But whether people use it or not when they're buying the product is another thing. I don't know. But this research suggests they don't.
Rhianna
Interesting. The naughtier, the better maybe.
Adam
I mean, I don't know if you guys are the same kind of weird as me. But I always notice when podcasts that I listened to regularly change the copy for their ads.
Rhianna
Yes.
Adam
That always sticks out to me. I mean, maybe, maybe I'm just in too deep to the world of podcast advertising.
Matt
So we do a daily show called The Retrospectors and obviously, you know, if we've got a campaign that lasts two weeks, if you did one advert, you're gonna hear that a lot. So we might do like three or four iterations of the same advert and just make sure that even if some of the key material has to stay the same, the first 20 seconds just has to be different. It has to be entertaining, and it has to really make you want to keep listening just for your own sanity until you can find the skip button. You know, I'm aware people do that.
Rhianna
It is interesting because if I do hear the same advert again, I sort of, I expect quite a lot of effort, I suppose, from my podcasts. And if I realise that they haven't put the effort in each week, and we're just supposed to be listening to exactly the same thing and not notice, I find myself almost feeling a bit patronised. Which I'm probably as you say, Adam thinking too much about it. It's an advert that isn't necessarily even for me, like you say, I'm not really that into manscaping, I've got to be honest, it's kind of irrelevant whether or not the copy is the same or not. But I guess it's just another part of a podcast that it needs to keep me entertained to keep me listening to the, to the next bit of the actual podcast, right?
Matt
Balls, balls, balls.
Rhianna
Balls, balls, balls.
Adam
balls, balls, balls.
Rhianna
So we are going to have a theme, I think, each time that we speak to a guest, because we want to know, a specific angle about their podcast. And this week, we're going to be talking all about sustainable growth in audience and also in business.
Adam
So one of the really interesting things about promo codes, I find, is they're a very accessible entry level form of monetisation for podcasts, particularly when they're kind of relatively small. They may not have a dedicated salesperson who's going out there and kind of getting bespoke campaigns and host reads and whatnot. They're really useful for measuring how well a podcast is converting those kinds of listeners. But what I think is really interesting is how you measure return on investment for podcasts, because ad sales and that kind of thing is obviously one way. But there are a lot of podcasts where making money isn't necessarily even an objective.
Rhianna
I find it really interesting that Deborah's podcast is a BBC podcast, which means that she's not able to monetise it in those ways that we've talked about in terms of promo codes or adverts or whatever. And that does feel like a very deliberate decision. So yes, we are going to be talking all about sustainable growth with Deborah. And I was joined by editor in chief of Campaign and editorial director of PodPod Gideon Spanier, to talk to Deborah Meaden all about sustainable growth. And about for her, what is important in a podcast: is it about monetisation, or the message, and pretty much everything in between. So here she is, Deborah Meaden, talking about The Big Green Money Show. Joining us, through the medium of technology, we have Deborah Meaden, hello!
Deborah Meaden
Hello.
Rhianna
Thank you so much for talking to us. I am very excited about this interview.
Deborah
Looking forward to it.
Rhianna
So we are here to talk all about The Big Green Money Show. This is something that you feel incredibly passionate about. And you want to use your position to really make sure that these issues that are important to you, but also to so many people around the UK are heard. So you didn't need to make a podcast. But why did you decide that this was a really good medium for what you wanted to talk about?
Deborah
I think the joy about podcasts is that it's a very intimate medium, you know, you kind of do talk to people one to one, the danger with podcasts is that you attract the people who kind of already agree with you. That's an issue. But of course, if you get it right, if you get the tone right, if you are interesting and engaging, then hopefully, people spread the word for you that so many times, I'm sure you hear it as well, in conversations people will say to me, Oh, you must listen to this podcast. So I think it's it's intimacy, it allows people to really concentrate on a subject in a really busy world when stuff is flying past us so fast. I think podcasts are that moment where people can really dig into the things that they're interested in.
Rhianna
And you really could have made a podcast about absolutely anything, but you have chosen to talk about environmental issues. Was there anybody who was sort of saying, Oh, why did you pick this of all things?
Deborah
I kind of picked it because I thought it was quite a difficult topic. It's quite hard, I think, to attack the issues around the environment without sounding a little bit tub thumping, you know, and that can really switch people off. And what I wanted to do is I wanted to learn alongside the people who are listening to the podcast, you know, I don't claim to be an expert, but I am interested. So you know, we've got some fascinating people on who really really know their topic, even when I think I know quite a bit about stuff, they come into the studio, and I think, goodness, I'd never even thought of that, you know, I hadn't even considered those issues. So, and I'm hoping Felicity and I kind of hope that in in our journey and in our learning, people sort of they'll join us in that instead of feeling like they're being talked at. But you know, honestly, I don't think there is a more important topic right now than climate change, biodiversity loss, habitat loss, clean air, clean water, there can be nothing more important. We might not all know that yet. But in a minute, if we not careful, and we don't avoid some of the issues that that's going to throw up, then boy, are we going to feel it.
Rhianna
Yeah, absolutely. That's what your podcast does so brilliantly, it balances a really light, easy to listen to conversation between you and Fliss. But also, of course, you're hearing all of these really quite not fear mongering, because that sounds like it, you know, like it's over the top. And it's not, it's very, very pertinent. Talk about how you manage to kind of come to that balance without scaring the audience too much, but also making sure that they do engage, and they do listen, and hopefully take a lot of it on board.
Deborah
I think the important thing is I don't sit there as an expert, I am genuinely interested. And actually, we're looking at our next series. Now, we've got a couple of weeks break. And you know, what topics really resonate with me as a person, not just me, as a business person or me, as you know, just personally, what resonates? What am I worried about? And making sure that we're picking up on the topics that not just Felicity and I think are interesting. But you know, through the medium of the wonderful BBC, we're able to say, Come on, then tell us what you want to hear about. Tell us what worries you tell us what you want to talk about. So hopefully, we're hitting the topics that people are concerned about. We're getting experts, we're getting, you know, business leaders who are living with this all day, every day. We're unpicking what they can do what they are doing. We're also unpicking what they're not doing, and what they're finding very difficult to do. But we also talk to small businesses. And we also talk to you and me, you know, we just talk to everyday people; how're you feeling about this?
Rhianna
Yeah.
Deborah
We try to pick topics that that resonate, and that you can connect to because, you know, if it's all too intangible, what does it mean to me? But if it's something I really care about, then of course, I'm gonna be interested.
Rhianna
The one for me that really stood out was, and I think it helped that it had emergency in the title, but it was the one that you did in the middle of the heatwave recently, and you had clearly just had to gather everything together to do something. And it was an emergency, and it felt so urgent. So tell us about having to react on the fly to something like that. How, how long did that take you?
Deborah
Well, we have a wonderful producer. I mean, I honestly don't know how she does it. It really came about, we sort of we had a panicked call. I was supposed to be in the studio. It was Monday or the Tuesday with a really, really hot day. And I had a panic call with Lexi saying, Look, A, I'm not sure I can get there. I'm in Somerset, and the trains aren't running. You know, all of our guests couldn't make it. And we just thought actually hold on a minute. This is exactly what we're talking about.
Rhianna
Yes!
Deborah
You know, so can we can we actually, instead of panicking and thinking, Oh, my goodness, we can't make the next episode. How about we make the next episode about exactly what we're experiencing? So I don't know how she does it, to be honest. I then just had to wait a few hours. And before I know it, Lexi's come up with Yes, and we could talk to so and so we could do this. And she's amazing. But it kind of to me, it was a really powerful episode. It was actually living the thing that we talk about so often, you know, that is what a really hot climate is going to be doing to us, you know, it's going to knock our lives for six.
Rhianna
You talking about your position as a business leader. Do you think that helps you book the guests that you want? Is it you know, quite useful for your podcast, having your name out there as Come on, be interviewed by Deborah and Fliss. And that's a way for them also to be heard because you have such a huge audience yourself?
Deborah
Well, yes, I think it's a bit of a double edged sword. Because when when we first decided to come up with a podcast, they actually had a lot of people saying, oh, Deborah Meaden? Not sure. Only because I think they see me on Dragon's Den and thought, you know, oh, she's gonna give us a terrible grilling. I actually physically had to write a paragraph to say, this is not about, you know, hammering you. This is about trying to unpick what you what you are doing, what you can do, what the government needs to do, what the consumers want from you. I think to start off with it might have been a little bit of they were a little bit wary, but having seen the style of the podcast, and we're definitely not adversarial, you know, we won't let them get away with stuff. But we're not there just to hammer at them. So now I think it definitely helps and we've got, you know, thank you to all of the those business leaders who come on to the podcast, it would have been so easy just to keep their heads down, not talk about the issues, kept quiet about it, but but they've stuck their heads above the parapet and they've talked about what is a very difficult issue. So you know, I'm incredibly grateful to them.
Rhianna
Do you have a dream guest or someone you know that your your white whale that you've been trying to speak to desperately on your podcast that you haven't managed to get yet?
Deborah
Well, we did aim for Bill Gates, that was on our first...
Rhianna
Fabulous! I love those aims!
Deborah
You know, we didn't we didn't start. we aim quite high to start off with. No, we've got some fantastic I mean, Mike Berners-Lee, you know, he is he is absolutely amazing, he actually has been on our podcast. And hopefully he will come back and talk to us again. Barack Obama, he'd be amazing.
Rhianna
Oh, yes.
Deborah
But, but But I do think it's not, it's important that the personalities don't overpower the messages. You know, it's important we talk to business leaders. But it really isn't about the big name or the celeb name. It's about the industries they're in and what they're doing within those industries, I think is more important - although Bill Gates is listening, we would quite like him to come on the podcast.
Rhianna
Well, that's interesting you say that, because if you might see in your news feed and your podcast feed that Martin Lewis has come on to talk to you about the cost of living crisis, they're going to be interested in what Martin Lewis has to say over a name that they don't necessarily know. So is there still that balance of getting in, you know, not even celebrities, but just more household names?
Deborah
I think so. But actually, a lot of the big organisations, a lot of people don't know who's running them.
Rhianna
That's true, yeah.
Deborah
If I talk about Centrica or British Gas, they might get that; they won't necessarily be able to name their CEO. We've had the CEO of Rolls Royce, well, the CEO Rolls Royce, within the industry, of course, everybody knows is Warren East, but everyday people don't walk around knowing that. When we can say the boss of Octopus energy, or the boss of British Gas, I think that's probably what attracts people and the British Gas episode, I think it was one of our highest rated episodes. And that was very poignant. It was very, you know, at that moment, people wanted to understand what the energy market was, you know, was today and what it was going to look like, and what should they worry about? What shouldn't they worry about? So I think it's probably the industries that we tackle. You are right, that the industries that people can identify, you know, the ones, the EasyJets that, people fly EasyJet, you know, the British Gases, they're probably customers of British Gas, those are the ones that attract the most attention.
Gideon
So I was interested in so many different things you've said, but just as we think about a podcast, with the BBC's support, obviously, you don't have to necessarily think about the economics of just what it takes to produce a weekly podcast. By the way, of course, you may think very carefully about the economics of it. Tell us a little bit about that relationship that you have. And if you have thought about what you might do if you were looking for an alternative source of funding, unless it was, of course, you know, goodwill from you?
Deborah
Well, I mean, it is great to be working with the BBC. But of course, it is actually no different. The BBC has to get good value for money for its viewers. So if we don't attract enough listeners, then the BBC will simply say, I'm sorry, this isn't working, there isn't enough general interest, we still clearly have an eye on, you know, are we good value for the BBC, you know, for the BBC licence holders. So in terms of an alternative, the truth of the matter is, this is something that if the BBC decided they weren't going to do it anymore, I would be deeply disappointed. And I would want to be able to continue with the podcast in some format, preferably with Felicity, because she is fantastic. And if I wanted to do it badly enough, then I would almost certainly fund it myself to start off with, until it got to the critical matter where I might consider accepting sponsorship. But there is an issue around this. I think that people accept the podcast in the current format, because they understand, we don't have sponsors, we don't have vested interests. I'm not taking money from big corporations, you know, and therefore, we simply are able to ask the questions that need answering. And actually, when you are talking about a difficult topic, like the environment, the you'd have to be very, very careful who you accepted sponsorship from. Because there is no industry in the world that is not having some negative impact on the planet. And once you start taking money from those industries, then it's very easy for people to say yes, well, I know but look at what they've done in the past, or look at what they're up to now. So I think you have to be very, very careful if you're going to have an open ear from your listeners.
Gideon
Very interesting. So obviously, I think as a journalist, that it is really important that there's a clear division between the church and state, that obviously branded content exists, but if you are dealing with news and current affairs, there's a division. So I don't want to ask what might appear a stupid question but can ad-funded news and current affairs prosper in a podcast world? Or actually, do you think almost there needs to be a different model, whether it's subscription or some form of licence fee grant? Because it is quite a challenging thing. There are a lot of people who are building podcasts, but can they make money out of them to fund them?
Deborah
Yes, they can. Because there's plenty examples, my fellow Dragon, for example, Steven, he's got a hugely successful podcast, they're sponsored. And I think the answer to that is always a mix. You know, there is a place for ad funding, there is a place for pure sponsorship. And there is a place for, you know, podcasts like the ones that I do, which which are funded through a public service type podcast. So I think the answer is always going to be a mix; the question I think, is how you fund at the beginning, because it's all very well going for sponsorship, when you can say I've got half a million listeners, it's much more difficult when you have got an important topic, you're not particularly a celebrity, or well known or you don't particularly have a name, but you do need to talk about something important. How do you get that funding? Ads are pretty much out of the question, because you don't have a big enough viewer, you're going to have to find warm, friendly sponsors who want to be seen connected to your topic. I think it's no different to any other business, there are plenty of ways of finding funding. The question is me and my situation, if I'm an unknown, I've never done a podcast before, but I've got a really interesting topic, then I'm gonna have to go out and find somebody who I think is going to care about my topic as much as they care, you know, sell them the same story you would a business startup, this is my idea. This is where it's going to go. This is how many people it's going to reach. This is how we're going to make money out of it in the future, or we're not going to make money out of the future. We're just going to change the world, you know, but whatever it is, it's the same as any business. And the answer is never one answer. It's always which is the funding source that suits you and your situation best.
Rhianna
You have such a huge and engaged, importantly, social following. How do you promote the podcast with your kind of ready made audience? And how has it been received?
Deborah
Not all of my audience are interested in everything I say; I'd love to think they are. But they're not. And you have to be really careful because particularly on Twitter, people don't like being sold to, they don't like being promoted to, so I think it's important to offer up the conversation, but not just keep banging on about it, you know, and sometimes I've crossed the line, I've felt it. And I've thought actually now I'm going on a bit too much.
Rhianna
Do you mean in a tweet?
Deborah
Yes, in a tweet, particularly on Twitter, it's my strongest platform, it's okay to open up a conversation. It's okay to keep the conversation going. As long as people want to keep the conversation going. It's okay to talk about your podcasts, what you can't do is keep banging on about it. And as I say, sometimes I get that wrong, because I want people to hear and I want people to care about things I care about. But I also, I'm a grown up, I understand people have lots of other things to care about too. So you know, every now and then I will cross a line and think Hold on a minute, now you are actually going on a bit. You need to pull back from that. But it is, Twitter is is very responsive, if you use it in the way Twitter wants to be have their messages delivered, but they won't be told; there's no point saying listen to my podcast.
Rhianna
Yeah, that's interesting. As an investor, I bet you get pitched so often podcasting businesses. So what are your thoughts about investing in podcasts? What would make you invest in a podcast?
Deborah
So I think I'm slightly unusual in this, and I'm in a fortunate position to be able to do this, I make all of my business decisions against a checklist of things I care about, things, you know, my list of ethics, my list of values. To me, I would invest in a podcast, because I think it is an important podcast that needs to be made. And I wouldn't necessarily need, it's return to me would be the messages. So you know, that would be a reason. There would might be another reason, which is okay, this is, oh I get that, I understand why people would want to hear that. And I and also understand that there's there is a commercial element to that. So I would get a return on that. So I would be, I'd be happy to do that. But it would always be against the background of am I comfortable with this? You know, is this something that I would be proud of being associated with? Would I be able to talk about it? Or would I kind of go Oh, no, no, no, I'm not, I'm not associated with that. So I'm not the only person who approaches or investments like that. There are there are many of us, but there are also many who just look at it on a purely commercial basis.
Rhianna
And because people know you now for being so incredibly passionate about the environment, is that something that even when you're in the den, is that something that people are more targeting you with, those sorts of ideas about sustainability?
Deborah
Well, yes, there's two things that I would say about that. First of all, when I first joined the den, the other dragons used to call me swampy because, you know, they literally go there she goes on and on and on again. And the great news is that actually the businesses that come into the den now, you know, there is not a business that doesn't talk about its, its sustainability. Now, that might be as simple as we really haven't got this right. We're starting on our journey. But these are the things we're doing. Or it might be we are a fundamentally sustainable business, I invested in a great little business called Fussy, which is trying to change, we're trying to get the plastics out of the bathroom, you know, it's really it was a really bad place for single-use plastics.
Rhianna
Yes. That's huge.
Deborah
They've got a refillable organic deodorant. They were founded as a fundamentally sustainable business, you know, and I can sense that, that a lot of that is aimed at me, sometimes not solely, because they might think, well, actually, Deborah can help on the sustainable bit, somebody else might be able to help on the PR and marketing, although I spent my life in PR and marketing.
Rhianna
Still you.
Deborah
Yeah, it makes me laugh. And I'm like the environmental one, right? Yeah. But I did actually spend 20 years in PR and marketing. And also, if there's a business in there that can't express at least a desire to become more sustainable, I won't be interested.
Gideon
Super interesting. And I want to pick up on something you were talking about earlier, and sort of trying to imagine how you track the success of your podcast, you're on to season three. So how has your audience built? Are you aware of that? Do you get the audience figures and the analytics, and have there been any lessons you've drawn from trying to drive your audience to prove it's worth another season?
Deborah
So we had huge success in our first season, partly because I think it went out while Dragon's Den was on. So when Gragons is on obviously, there's a lot more eyes on me, a lot of support from the BBC. And we actually went virtually straight in at number two in business podcasts, which is pretty phenomenal. But of course, there is a difference in an audience that is driven to through promotion, and a fundamentally interested audience. And in season two, we'd been off for a couple of months, people had forgotten about us, and we had to start down the league again. But we are watching the audience grow sustainably, it is on the constant rise. I don't actually have the stats from the BBC. And actually, I don't know the BBC Sounds stats, but they are very pleased with the the fact that the curve is going up all of the time. And we're gaining audience share, every single episode, we gain audience share. And that's really I think, what what they were interested in, I don't have the actual stats. By the way, I don't actually know, although I do ask for them. I don't know why they're secretive, but probably because people like you will ask me what they are. And I'm not supposed to tell you.
Gideon
Yeah, that was gonna be my follow up question. Come on, spill the beans. So I did love the one recently where you were talking about, you didn't turn on your central heating till Christmas, and just wore lots of jumpers to get through it. And thinking about the energy price cap, there's a paradox of us with an energy crisis at the same time, as we've got record temperatures, it feels like sadly, this podcast could run for many seasons, because it's, it's not going to be a problem that solved in a year or even five years.
Deborah
That's not sad that the podcast runs, cause there will always be stuff to do.
Gideon
That's true; I mean, the sense of crisis.
Deborah
But I do know what you mean. And it's a problem that is going to run for many, many years. Well, we're never going to be over it because we will always have to consider our impact on the planet because we now know the effect we can have. And if we take our eye off the ball, we will have.
Rhianna
Are you a fan generally of podcasts yourself? What do you listen to? When do you listen to them?
Deborah
So yes, I listen, you know, really weirdly, I listened to The Big Green Money Show. Because you probably find it when you're recording something...
Rhianna
Yes, I know exactly what you're gonna say!
Deborah
Really different to when you're listening to it. I'm glad you get that. You're like why am I listening to this? I was there, I heard it all. I don't want to admit that because it sounds a little bit rude. But there's a difference between hearing it and listening to it and absorbing it and being able to sort of place it in your head in the bigger picture as opposed to hearing that as a single answer. So I do actually listen to The Big Green Money Show. I do listen to some of the politics show, you know the Alastair Campbell and Rory Stewart. I find them absolutely fascinating and I will listen to sort of random podcasts that people say to me, you should listen to this one but I'm not. I'm not a go to podcast person. I tell you why, I do tend to, I don't run and a lot of people I think listen to their podcasts while they're kind of doing their leisure exercises. I don't do that; I ride and it's not a good idea to not be concentrating when you're riding.
Rhianna
Please don't do that.
Deborah
But I, I will listen to them when people say you should listen to that.
Rhianna
When I was listening to The Big Green Money podcast I was thinking you've spoken to so many of these corporations that people might think quite negatively of, and are you tempted to hit harder with some more than others? If you know certain areas of their reputation?
Deborah
Well, I don't think it's that we intend to hit harder, it's just that if there's something we need to explore, if we're aware of something, that we feel the listener, you know, hold on a minute, weren't they doing that? You know, then I think it's our job to explore that. So I think, I don't think, we don't set out to hit one harder than the other, I just think we have to answer the questions that are waiting for us to ask, the obvious ones that you, anybody walking down the street would think well, weren't they doing that thing that was, that wasn't very good for the environment? That's our job, to actually say OK, we're going to have to tackle this. One of the upcoming episodes we've got is L’Oreal Cause we're gonna talk about makeup, beauty products cause you can imagine, the plastic, the, the, um precious minerals; there's a lot of problems sitting around that. That is an industry that's littered with problems. So it it's our job to tackle the issues that we think people wanna hear.
Rhianna
That's gonna be a really good one.
Deborah
I'm not gonna tell you how I came away surprised by that because it will kind of spoil the ending, But, Um, that for me was a really really interest a really interesting, and you know I liked about L'Oreal and I will say this, is that they took on an activist as their head of sustainability. So this wasn't somebody who decided they were going to go into sustainability as a career. This is somebody who really cared about, you know, they came from it with emotion. And I think that says a lot about an organization.
Rhianna
That's interesting. you mentioned earlier about, Steven Bartlett also has a very successful podcast talking to CEOs. Is there a sort of um friendly rivalry between the two of you? about the success of your pods?
Deborah
Well friendly because yes, we got on very well Rivalry not really We're in very different spaces doing very different things I would be blown away if the sustainability issue would attract as many people as the sort of looking into, people's lives and careers and the sort of inspiration side of that. And, and actually I was blown away that we were, you know, he was number one of the charts. We were number two I was Blown away by that Um but I do think that we are going to we are going to climb closer to that position again as people realize that it isn't tub thumping; that it is an interesting podcast. It is something that touches every day lives. so, you know, I think we will climb to that, but I'm not, we are doing very different things.
Rhianna
Yes.
Gideon
Interest in business has in my lifetime in the UK has, It seems to me like it's grown In interest in how businesses operate. when I was younger I don't think there was so much interest in how businesses operated And if there's a link with your podcast it's the idea that businesses can do good, have an obligation to do good and not just to sort of help improve the environment, be regenerative I wondered even with Steven Bartlett this there's an interest I think from younger audiences as Well, What do you observe about The role of business and especially compared to government?
Deborah
Well, that's very interesting at the moment because I I'm afraid to say government feels like it's been in limbo. and if there's one thing I hear constantly across the podcast, from every business leader in every different industry. Look, we need to know where we are going. We need a framework. We need to understand the focus because we, and in the absence of that, the good news is that there is business to say, Well, actually in the absence of being given any guidance whatsoever, this is what we are going to do. The, the bad news, if government doesn't provide a framework reasonably quickly is that you'll have lots of industries doing, going off in lots of different directions, trying to tackle the same issue, but in lots of different ways, which might not necessarily fit with a government vision. The, you know, the government then brings in an infrastructure and industry goes, oh, hold on a minute. I've just spent millions making sure hydrogen was the next greatest thing. And now you're telling me hydrogen isn't. so Business has a really key role, and business can move faster than governments. Actually business really carries out the strategy that government sets, um, because government sets the strategy and a framework and business says, okay, we can do it. But the cry I hear all of the time at the moment is tell us what you want. Tell us what the strategy looks like and what the vision is, and we will deliver. But in the absence of it, we are kind of having to make this up as we go along, which is not ideal.
Gideon
It's early days Do you wanna give any marks to Liz Truss?
Deborah
I think it's very, very early days, but in terms of the environment, I am very, very concerned. It appears to have dropped off the agenda and considering it is the single biggest issue that faces us. I know that it feels like the energy crisis, which incidentally is also part of the environmental crisis. But I know that that feels like what we should worry about because it is here and it is now. But if we don't sort this long term, we are gonna get this here and now this energy crisis forever and ever, and ever. and it worries me that we are going backwards in terms of energy. We are looking at fracking again, you know, we are looking at fossil fuels instead of thinking, okay, now's our moment. you know, let's do this differently and let's solve this problem once. And for all.
Rhianna
So that was the brilliant Deborah Meaden talking about the Big Green Money Show, and I feel like I learned an awful lot actually listening to her speak. Adam, what kind of really stood out for you?
Adam
What really jumped out at me was the fact that for the second season, Although they ranked very highly initially, they were seeing very steady, sustained audience growth over the course of the season as new episodes dropped and it really hammered home to me that podcasters should be prioritizing slow sustainable growth, organic growth, in terms of their audience. It doesn't need to be a big bang with a top five chart position straight off the bat. You can really build that audience gradually and it'll be much more engaged, I think.
Matt
I always think about when building formats, especially when you know that your investment might take a while to recoup, I feel like you should always plan your shows a bit like Hollywood plans films. Like they might take a screenplay look at what it would cost to make and say, Oh, well that's actually, you know, that's a hundred million movie, or that's a hundred, um, or that's a $10 million movie, and it's really about working out whether the audience is there to make that money back. And I think sometimes you look at a podcast format, how many times you're doing it per month, uh, how many, um, different features and elements there are to it, how much you're having to pay the talent. You need to work out what your. What size of show you are making and how sustainable it's going to be as you build that audience, because everyone's gonna start at zero. That's the nature of the beast with podcasting, and it's how quickly you grow or how meaningful that growth is, is to how well you can sustain that format into the future.
Adam
And Deborah's advice around pitching your podcast in the same way that you would pitch a, a business plan, I think was really valuable from that perspective.
Rhianna
I really like how honest she was when we asked about what she listens to in terms of other podcasting and you know, that podcast community. And she mainly listens to her own podcast, which I, as somebody who hates to hear their own voice back, just it sends these horrible shivers down my spine. But she also mentioned The Rest Is Politics. Alistair Campbell and Rory Stewart's podcast is one that she listens to. And as a matter of fact, we've got Alastair Campbell on PodPod next week. So, if you're a fan of The Rest Is Politics, and If you are interested in the sort of political podcast landscape and how that has changed over the past few years, especially with political podcasts, topping the charts week on week with The News Agents and The Rest Is Politics, then you must tune into PodPod next week to listen to Alastair Campbell talk all about that. So follow us on social media at PodPodOfficial. Stay tuned for podpod.com launching next week. Thank you so much for listening. Please rate and subscribe. I know it's early days, but it would really mean a lot. Thank you to Matt Hill, Gideon Spanier and Adam Shepherd. The podcast is produced by Emma Corsham for Haymarket Business Media, and I'm your host, Rhianna Dhillon.
